Breeding true bloodlines
- Thread starter Chameleoco
- Start date
Chameleoco
New Member
Thank you for everybody who has been kind enough to say nice things, rather than getting out the soap box.
I have actually emailed ed and liddy kammer and shown them pictures of one of my morphs and they were very impressed. I admire what they do, and would like to introduce these spectacular creations in England.
I enjoy what i do, and if you feel happier buying your chams from abroad, then hey, im not going to stop you! But what i do makes me happy and my chameleons are all very happy and healthy, so please do not think that by producing crosses, i am a terrible chameleon keeper,or person, this is not true.
I have actually emailed ed and liddy kammer and shown them pictures of one of my morphs and they were very impressed. I admire what they do, and would like to introduce these spectacular creations in England.
I enjoy what i do, and if you feel happier buying your chams from abroad, then hey, im not going to stop you! But what i do makes me happy and my chameleons are all very happy and healthy, so please do not think that by producing crosses, i am a terrible chameleon keeper,or person, this is not true.
jojackson
New Member
ja Ben, but it does also say..
Very Intresting for me though. I notice no data in that one regarding high temp mortality though, or if temps below 74f produced more males or not, nor any data regarding the use of diapause incubation on sex determination. Always learning something new, I appreciate the links.
Chameloco did you find my original theorys helpful at all?
The second theory (species confusion) is purely speculative though.
TreelionsUK
New Member
I dont think anyone,thinks your a bad keeper,person or otherwise,
Just producing 200 is a tad excessive a group or 2 fair enough thats only around 50 animals,
Maybe Not being sucessful breeding your pures,you got a bit impatiant and bred what you had that was receptive(again its wrong of me to assume this,and im sorry)
When i stuggled with breeding my panthers,i found there are lots of things you can try with them to get them in the mood.
Like showing the uninterested male,a smaller female...some times even showing a tiny little baby can spark them off,(sounds strange..but this really does work!)
Also placing your cages outside on a nice day can stimulate breeding activity(natural Uv works magic on chameleons)
Males often wont breed,if they have too much of the goodlife and forget what stress is..firing up your males every now and then is good for them(not all stress is unhealthy)
Sometimes introducing a prey item to the paired chameleons,can just break the ice and prevoke a positive reaction
Chameleons can be fussy animals,things sometimes need to be just right for breeding occur.
Its sometimes a challenge,but it can be achived
This forum is for topics like this everyone is free to post there POV.
I apologize for seeming a bit blunt to anyone i may have offended
Just to add chameleoco im sure you will create some STUNNING looking animals,but don't forget that there will be ones that won't look quite as good.
The Amazing ones will fly out of the door when you come to part with them,but you may find the duller "normals" are a bit harder to find a home for
Once i had a crossed male,me and a mate got one each,they were a pets but he was amazing...i really wanted to breed him,but i just could not do it,i felt really guilty...stupid i guess These are them,and they were from the same clutch.Just dug these pics out....one looks amazing and the other one is ok
Just producing 200 is a tad excessive a group or 2 fair enough thats only around 50 animals,
Maybe Not being sucessful breeding your pures,you got a bit impatiant and bred what you had that was receptive(again its wrong of me to assume this,and im sorry)
When i stuggled with breeding my panthers,i found there are lots of things you can try with them to get them in the mood.
Like showing the uninterested male,a smaller female...some times even showing a tiny little baby can spark them off,(sounds strange..but this really does work!
)Also placing your cages outside on a nice day can stimulate breeding activity(natural Uv works magic on chameleons)
Males often wont breed,if they have too much of the goodlife and forget what stress is..firing up your males every now and then is good for them(not all stress is unhealthy)
Sometimes introducing a prey item to the paired chameleons,can just break the ice and prevoke a positive reaction
Chameleons can be fussy animals,things sometimes need to be just right for breeding occur.
Its sometimes a challenge,but it can be achived
This forum is for topics like this everyone is free to post there POV.
I apologize for seeming a bit blunt to anyone i may have offended
Just to add chameleoco im sure you will create some STUNNING looking animals,but don't forget that there will be ones that won't look quite as good.
The Amazing ones will fly out of the door when you come to part with them,but you may find the duller "normals" are a bit harder to find a home for
Once i had a crossed male,me and a mate got one each,they were a pets but he was amazing...i really wanted to breed him,but i just could not do it,i felt really guilty...stupid i guess
These are them,and they were from the same clutch.Just dug these pics out....one looks amazing and the other one is ok
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Chameleoco
New Member
they both look amazing!
TreelionsUK
New Member
ChromaChameleons
New Member
Its not a question of bad or good , when discussing crosses. Unlike dogs or snakes, panther females do not have these wonderful colours that either pure locale or crosses produce in the males.
As a breeder , I sometimes find it a challenge to place pure females, but it can be done by selling to enthusiasts that are interested in breeding as well as the fewer customers that appreciate a female as a pet.
Since , I personally , don't produce crosses by design, I have never had to place cross females with the intent to finding keepers wanting females as pets only.
My original question on this thread was: Who buys the females?
How many posts here on chamforum has announced the acquisition of a new panther male cross??? How many have announced the acquisition of a female cross???
Again, personally , I don't produce crosses. If someone wants to do that , I hope they represent them honestly. I hope their wholesaler and pet store clients represent them honestly. And, I hope the females, being less desirable, to many hobbyists, can find their way into appreciative homes.
As a breeder , I sometimes find it a challenge to place pure females, but it can be done by selling to enthusiasts that are interested in breeding as well as the fewer customers that appreciate a female as a pet.
Since , I personally , don't produce crosses by design, I have never had to place cross females with the intent to finding keepers wanting females as pets only.
My original question on this thread was: Who buys the females?
How many posts here on chamforum has announced the acquisition of a new panther male cross??? How many have announced the acquisition of a female cross???
Again, personally , I don't produce crosses. If someone wants to do that , I hope they represent them honestly. I hope their wholesaler and pet store clients represent them honestly. And, I hope the females, being less desirable, to many hobbyists, can find their way into appreciative homes.
TreelionsUK
New Member
I agree chroma,the females are the problem,its just impossible to know what you are buying and as stated finding a home for all the girls will be tricky.
As they change hands,they will begin popping ever where labled as "whatever" gets good money
If money was not involved,honesty would work
sandrachameleon
Chameleon Enthusiast
I've sold females (males too of course) to people as pets. I am in contact with most of the people who have purchased chameleons from me (Im not a big breeder, just a hobbiest, so this is still realistic for me). None of the people who bought a less expensive female as a pet have expressed any regret in not having a male. Females are still attractive, still very interesting to watch, just as active as males, still hunt with an "amazing tongue", still have the "neat eyes" and "kewl mitten hands" and the "awesome tail". These people dont give a hoot what lineage the female has.
Most people just want a pet, not a breeding project. Granted the folks on this forum may sway to more passionate, multiple animal keeping, but Im talking Joe and Jane Public, who just want a pet Lizard.
If selling female crosess is a problem, if no one wants them, the price asked for them should plummet, making them a more desirable "just a pet" option to the less particular part of the market.
The price for "pure" bred females, from reputable breeders, would presumably remain higher, catering to a select market willing to shell out more.
Kinda like happens with pure bred dogs and the equally desireable to most (but less expensive) mutt dog.
Most people just want a pet, not a breeding project. Granted the folks on this forum may sway to more passionate, multiple animal keeping, but Im talking Joe and Jane Public, who just want a pet Lizard.
If selling female crosess is a problem, if no one wants them, the price asked for them should plummet, making them a more desirable "just a pet" option to the less particular part of the market.
The price for "pure" bred females, from reputable breeders, would presumably remain higher, catering to a select market willing to shell out more.
Kinda like happens with pure bred dogs and the equally desireable to most (but less expensive) mutt dog.
ChromaChameleons
New Member
Just for the record, Sandra, I too have a special place in my heart for the females. I find them to be more active and have a much more diverse character.
My very first chameleon was a female Fischer. I still remember her smile, I swear she looked like Reba Macintyre, grinning from cheek to cheek.
But, my experience, selling retail over the net and vending at reptile expos, clearly sways towards " Joe and Jane Public" wanting the males, the bling bling, and it takes salesmenship and education to place the females to newbs. Seems most newbs don't want a female due to the subdued colouration and their misinformed fear of egg binding.
My very first chameleon was a female Fischer. I still remember her smile, I swear she looked like Reba Macintyre, grinning from cheek to cheek.
But, my experience, selling retail over the net and vending at reptile expos, clearly sways towards " Joe and Jane Public" wanting the males, the bling bling, and it takes salesmenship and education to place the females to newbs. Seems most newbs don't want a female due to the subdued colouration and their misinformed fear of egg binding.
sandrachameleon
Chameleon Enthusiast
Fair enough, I totally accept what you're saying, with the current market. But if the female crosses were $50 and the males still $300+, I bet the amount of marketing to "sell" a female would be lessened.
And I'd own 100 of them. LOL
Eric Adrignola
Avid Member
The next time I want to get a lot of attention in a thread, I'll title it "justification of cross-breeding panther locales".
This is a major reason I avoid the things. I personally, see a lot of good reasons to cross them - interesting, perhaps superior color-combinations may result.
There are many reasons not to do it - the biggest issue is the fact that every crossed clutch is a threat to the efforts of people who want to maintain a pure locale bloodline.
Too many conflicting issues for me. I think I'll end up buing a nice, proven subadult male one day as a show animal... to hell with the stress of locale ID!
111 posts in just a day or so. Amazing.
Tere's a way to be responsible (and possibly unethical at the same time). Cull the females. There you go.
This is a major reason I avoid the things. I personally, see a lot of good reasons to cross them - interesting, perhaps superior color-combinations may result.
There are many reasons not to do it - the biggest issue is the fact that every crossed clutch is a threat to the efforts of people who want to maintain a pure locale bloodline.
Too many conflicting issues for me. I think I'll end up buing a nice, proven subadult male one day as a show animal... to hell with the stress of locale ID!
111 posts in just a day or so. Amazing.
Tere's a way to be responsible (and possibly unethical at the same time). Cull the females. There you go.
Dean Pulcini
Avid Member
Animals are culled all the time by zoos for the good of the species as a whole they don't consider feelings because they know it has to be done and they are professionals and only thing unethical is a heart getting in the way of a brain.
Dean
Dean
ChromaChameleons
New Member
The day I consider culling female chameleons is the day I'm out of this industry.
Eric Adrignola
Avid Member
Well, I cull my veileds every time I need to. In a clutch, there are sometimes animals that are clearly weaker. I allow them to die - as in, I never give them any special treatment that might otherwise save them. Too many weak animals make it to breed in captivity.
If you are faced with the options of selling female panthers of dubious genetic makeup to people with questionable breeding ethics, or culling them, you should cull. If you are not willing to make a decision like that, you should not have taken the responsibility of breeding the animals in the first place.
We breed them for fun and enjoyment. There is no reason you should ignore the very real responsibilities you take on when engaging in breeding. It's life - respect it.
If you have the fortitude to be selective with your breeding, that is one thing. If you just can't bare the thought of killing a poor tiny runt ambanja/Faly mix, so you sell it to somebody - because, of course, selling it is better than killing it... well then, you should not be breeding them.
You want to be responsible abot breeding new morphs of pardalis? Simple. Ensure that the animals do not "contaminate" the bloodlines that others work so hard to establish. To be done responsibly, this probably means holding back animals for breeding, and not selling any until a bloodline can be established. This means lots of culling. There is simply NO WAY to be sure that animals will not be bred into existing bloodlines.
I can see no other way this can be done without an impact onto the "pure" bloodlines.
If you are faced with the options of selling female panthers of dubious genetic makeup to people with questionable breeding ethics, or culling them, you should cull. If you are not willing to make a decision like that, you should not have taken the responsibility of breeding the animals in the first place.
We breed them for fun and enjoyment. There is no reason you should ignore the very real responsibilities you take on when engaging in breeding. It's life - respect it.
If you have the fortitude to be selective with your breeding, that is one thing. If you just can't bare the thought of killing a poor tiny runt ambanja/Faly mix, so you sell it to somebody - because, of course, selling it is better than killing it... well then, you should not be breeding them.
You want to be responsible abot breeding new morphs of pardalis? Simple. Ensure that the animals do not "contaminate" the bloodlines that others work so hard to establish. To be done responsibly, this probably means holding back animals for breeding, and not selling any until a bloodline can be established. This means lots of culling. There is simply NO WAY to be sure that animals will not be bred into existing bloodlines.
I can see no other way this can be done without an impact onto the "pure" bloodlines.
ChromaChameleons
New Member
....no other way... very one dimensional thinking.... to cull, by default, weak sickly animals by allowing them to die is one thing, to eliminate all females because they are crosses is totally premeditated.
Apples and Oranges arguement
Apples and Oranges arguement
sandrachameleon
Chameleon Enthusiast
There is another option of course. Keep the rare runty ones yourself.
Eric Adrignola
Avid Member
I wasn't trying to justify the killing of female chameleons as a rule. It is, essentially, the only way to "be sure" that you are not going to create, ah, genetic problems, in established(or yet-to-be established) bloodlines.
The quandary is posed over and over: "what are you going to DO with them?"
You either keep them all, kill them, release them into the wild, sell them or give them away. Selling them or giving them away means it is possible that they might cause a problem down the road. Can't release them. Keeping them all poses problems, and is impractical for most.
For the casual hobbyist, who hatches out a clutch of animals of mixed bloodlines, dealing with the females presents a massive problem.
To avoid harming the captive gene pool (which is ideally, composed of distinct genetic types - locales), you must keep the individuals that pose a threat to it (animals of dubious backgrounds, impossible to ID - not just females - often these males are unidentifiable) out of it.
We cull weak animals, or animals with "undesirable" traits. Allowing weak or sick animals to be sold results in problems. Ugly, tiny calyptratus, for example.
I don't actively kill animals unless there is an obvious problem - and that is rare. I find most other issues get weeded out on their own. When dealing with a mainstream group that views these hybrids as "unfit", the dilemma is quite interesting. Either kill the animals, or risk destroying the work that has taken decades. Culling perfectly healthy animals just because of the 'threat' they pose to the hobbyist-constructed need for purity is crappy. I know. but how else you gonna do it?
It is really hard to get these points across on the internet - but I AM playing Devil's Advocate here. I think the prospect of culling them is terrible, as is the potential harm they might cause to the bloodlines. It's a problem with no real right answer. For me, though, the answer is simple - stick to Trioceros.
I don't believe there's anything wrong with the crosses myself. It's not the cross that is the problem it's the potential problems they may cause.
Chameleon Company
Avid Member
Purity ?
Its for the purists ! If one wants pure pedigrees, one can take the necessary precautions, and expense, to maintain that standard. The market for crosses is not only among those who like the unexpected, and sometimes gorgeous, color combinations, but also with the inexperienced, if not completely uneducated, who may buy on impulse from a pet store that has an animal labeled no more descriptively than "panther chameleon". Locale crosses typically sell for less, while essentially costing the same amount to produce and raise, and do not make the same economic sense to many of us who want the best bang-for-the buck from the facility available to us. But to reject, or cull, or criticize crosses, is to be oblivious to the reality of the marketplace. If you got 'em, sell 'em !
I try to avoid hybrids like the plague, but that is just a personal opinion, with a good dose of business strategy included. It falls well short of being an ethical decision, so long as one is honest in how the product is represented. Put another way, producing crosses has no ethical shadow over it. The original stock upon which we base these distinctions is just fine in Mada, regardless of the alarmists. Chicanery within the hobbyist community is not the result of deliberate cross-breeding of locales, but rather the product of deliberate or slapshod misrepresentation, in "pursuit of the almighty buck" (how is that put on the Continent ? ... you don't have "bucks" ... just curious). That ethical lapse is rampant, btw.
Frankly, as facets of the marketplace become more polluted, it will increase the value of what the reliable purists sell. Both worlds can co-exist IMMHO.
Its for the purists ! If one wants pure pedigrees, one can take the necessary precautions, and expense, to maintain that standard. The market for crosses is not only among those who like the unexpected, and sometimes gorgeous, color combinations, but also with the inexperienced, if not completely uneducated, who may buy on impulse from a pet store that has an animal labeled no more descriptively than "panther chameleon". Locale crosses typically sell for less, while essentially costing the same amount to produce and raise, and do not make the same economic sense to many of us who want the best bang-for-the buck from the facility available to us. But to reject, or cull, or criticize crosses, is to be oblivious to the reality of the marketplace. If you got 'em, sell 'em !
I try to avoid hybrids like the plague, but that is just a personal opinion, with a good dose of business strategy included. It falls well short of being an ethical decision, so long as one is honest in how the product is represented. Put another way, producing crosses has no ethical shadow over it. The original stock upon which we base these distinctions is just fine in Mada, regardless of the alarmists. Chicanery within the hobbyist community is not the result of deliberate cross-breeding of locales, but rather the product of deliberate or slapshod misrepresentation, in "pursuit of the almighty buck" (how is that put on the Continent ? ... you don't have "bucks" ... just curious). That ethical lapse is rampant, btw.
Frankly, as facets of the marketplace become more polluted, it will increase the value of what the reliable purists sell. Both worlds can co-exist IMMHO.
