Butterworm Problem - Please Look!

[Syn]

I am posting this here for my friend, Styx, from Pangea. Styx recently had a problem with a chemical type burn on their geckos. A vet visit was made, and they are just stumped. I am posting this here (with permission) to see if anyone else has had experience with this, because quite frankly, no one so far has a clue what this is.

I understand there is a difference between geckos and chameleons, but you can never be too sure.

I really hope posting this here can shed some light on the issue. I will pass on all information to Styx and try to post on their behalf when possible.

Thank you ahead of time for any help or information you can give.

These injuries are as a result of feeding butterworms to my baby geckos. I will start off with clearing up any speculation - no there is no possible other cause, it was without a doubt the butterworms.

I hand fed the worms myself, I saw it happen with my own eyes, and there is nothing in their enclosure that could wound them in such a manner. I do not use unusual chemicals near the reptiles and the baby cresties do not have any heat source.

I am posting this because I feel others, especially crested keepers, should be aware of the potential danger. No other crested should have to suffer as mine are suffering.

With that out of the way, I'll explain.

I ordered a bunch of butterworms online and decided to feed the smaller ones to my babies cresties in an effort to get some really nice protein and extra nutrition into their growing bodies. I first crushed the head of the worm so that it couldn't bite them and then fed the worms to them via tweezers. As the geckos ate and bit the worms, they arched and got a clear fluid onto the geckos' faces (and in the gargoyle's case, one arm as the gargoyle shook his head from side to side). I didn't think anything of it, cleaned everything up, and put them back in their enclosures. The next day I noticed a wine-colored "stain" where the juice had touched them. Other than the color, it looked normal so I thought nothing of it. I simply thought it was just that - a stain from the juices of the butterworms that I had missed. The geckos behaved normally, continued to feed, and looked normal other than the discoloration.

Then they shed. The shed came off normally, but revealed a severe caustic burn on the animals. The skin felt tacky and took on the appearance in the photos. I called my vet and she recommended I put a salve I had gotten from her and that I do a Litmus paper test. I also sent her photos of the geckos.

I was positive the test would come back as abnormal, because of the lesions on the geckos' faces. But, I did the test, both a base and an acid test, and both came back as a neutral ph. On April 8th 2010 I took the geckos into the vet for her to examine closely in person and told her of the results. We're both stumped. Both my vet and my sister (who is perusing a degree in bio-technology) theorize it could have been an unusual chemical reaction between the butterworms and the skin of these geckos. Without more research, we're unsure of where to go from here. My vet has posted the photos on a DMV forum she frequents, to inform others also and to see if she can get any further information. Without intentionally burning more geckos to study the reaction and take samples, we're not sure of how to further research this incident - and neither my vet nor I consider this an option.

I have fed butters for years to other reptiles, chameleons in particular, but also my AFT with never any incident. It seems the rhacs have more delicate skin, as the baby crested, the one that seems to have the most delicate skin, suffered the most severe injuries. The gargoyle, which seem to have tougher skin than cresties, was not as badly burned.

In total, four baby crested geckos, two baby gargoyle geckos, and two sub-adult crested geckos were "burned". The babies are the absolute worst, with my two sub-adults suffering only one very small burn each.

In closing, as I said, I just wanted to get this out, and to warn others in the Rhac keeping community - feed your animals with caution.

I'll update this with any new relevant information as I come across it.

Edit: The residue you see in these photos is actually the salve I've been using, I wasn't able to wipe it all off for these photos.

 

[draetish]

That's awful and very sad

 

[Chameleonboy]

I hope Dave Weldon will chime in soon. I feel that he may know what is going on there. I have personally never had any problems with butter worms but I will for sure be staying away for the time being until this is resolved. Has she changed/moved any of her lighting at all? In some ways it looks like a burn?

-Clemonde

 

[moody232002]

poor little geckos,i also have never had any problems feeding them to mista,but i certainly won't be trying them with my daughters blizzard while i'm looking after him.
will be good to find a definitive answer

 

[DGray]

not butter

So sorry for those little guys, and their keeper.

Please keep us updated on their progress.

As it happens, my quads only ate a few butter worms, and then stopped and wouldn't touch them any more. I wonder if there's any connection?

 

[Dave Weldon]

Howdy,

I did some Google searches on "chilecomadia moorei" along with other various words that might associate them with the current concern. Not much popped-up. It was interesting to discover that these Chilean imported larvae are hit with low level radiation to keep them from ever being able to reproduce and to kill-off any bacteria that might be coming along for the ride.

I'm wondering if there was something in particular going on with that batch of butterworms?

If these lizards have eaten butterworms before without troubles, that would be a useful datapoint.

What about the insides of the lizards' mouths? Any sign of damage there?

Two different species of lizards having the same results diminishes the possibility of an allergic reaction.

Did the damage progress beyond the original contact site?

Did she do the pH test of another butterworm's juice or just the lizard's skin?

Can she get a sample of the juice under a microscope to look for microorganisms?

It may to take more of these incidents to sort this one out .

 

[chams1]

Great questions, Dave. I was wondering the same thing(s). Sabrina, see what kind of answers she can give us, or if she can address this with us directly (no offense to you, but it might help without having a go-between).

 

[Syn]

It may to take more of these incidents to sort this one out .

Styx and the vet have decided against trying to make the incident reoccur completely.

I will forward these questions and get back.

I will see if Styx will not create an account here as well. They are offline right now so I will try to get those answers ASAP..


Thanks a ton!

 

[jamncristian]

that is just horrible

i am just wondering how did their eyes not get affected??

 

[Styx]

Syn posted that for me and linked me back here to answer some Qs. And I remembered I had an account here already lol

I'm wondering if there was something in particular going on with that batch of butterworms?
Very possible. I will e-mail the company and ask.

If these lizards have eaten butterworms before without troubles, that would be a useful datapoint.
No, first time ever with butters for my Rhacs.

What about the insides of the lizards' mouths? Any sign of damage there?
No, completely fine. The geckos also still eat, gain weight, and deficate normally.

Did the damage progress beyond the original contact site?
No.

Did she do the pH test of another butterworm's juice or just the lizard's skin?
I never tested the skin, I just tested the juice from the worms directly.

Can she get a sample of the juice under a microscope to look for microorganisms?
Yes, I have a microsope, I'll do that soon. The skin itself didn't reveal anything on them like that.

i am just wondering how did their eyes not get affected??
NO idea. I thought that was weird also.

 

[jamncristian]

i hope your geckos get better and you find out what really happened

 

[sandrachameleon]

Weird. Glad the gecko is still alive after that - looks painful.

Certainly wont stop me from offering the benefit of butterworms to my chameleons on a regular basis. after thousands of butterworms going into multiple chameleons, other lizards and amphibians without harm, I am confident they make an excellent feeder choice.

I would guess the problem, if indeed related to the butterworms, is specific to geckos or related to that particular batch of worms (or whatever they were in).

 

[Styx]

I didn't say that you shouldn't offer them to chameleons. My post was directed towards the rhac keeping community, as I had stated in my original post.

 

[sandrachameleon]

I didn't say that you shouldn't offer them to chameleons. My post was directed towards the rhac keeping community, as I had stated in my original post.

I didnt take it you were suggesting chameleons should or should not eat them. But this is a chameleon forum, so my response including a chameleon related sentence shouldnt surprise you?

 

[Syn]

I didnt take it you were suggesting chameleons should or should not eat them. But this is a chameleon forum, so my response including a chameleon related sentence shouldnt surprise you?

Sorry about posting this on the Chameleonforums, I was looking to see if anyone had experienced anything else recently. So, my apologies.

 

[sandrachameleon]

You have nothing to appologise for. It is an interesting thread. Well worth sharing. Im sure many people who have chameleons also keep geckos.

 

[Seeco]

What ever happened to the geckos?

 

[Ellron]

.... It was interesting to discover that these Chilean imported larvae are hit with low level radiation to keep them from ever being able to reproduce and to kill-off any bacteria that might be coming along for the ride.....

Does anyone have a geiger counter? Maybe something has to do with radioactivity, even at a low level.

 

[xanthoman]

radiation?

radiation was the first thing i wondered about when i first saw this thread. i will be the first to admit, that i know almost nothing about radiation, but it seems likely, that it is somehow involved. i cant imagine that irradiating butter worms is a strictly controlled process,(especially in south america) and i was wondering if somehow the butterworms were over irradiated and if it is possible that somehow their flesh or stomach contents retained some residual radiation? i know that normally, irradiating something like that is not supposed to leave residual radiation, but i have always been weary of claims like that, and maybe if they were over irradiated or had some sort of unusual (mineral) content when they were? i know its a long shot and just a thought, but like ellron says, if any parties still have access to those same butter worms, that measuring their radiation levels might not be a bad idea. i think you can rent geiger counters, or maybe buy some sort of radiation test paper. i have never heared of anything like that with a non irradiated species , so i cant help but think it is somehow related. if anyone still has any of this batch of butterworms, i would be glad to do some dissective microscopy and take some pictures, but i have no idea of what i would be looking for, other than the usual parasites. jmo

 

[xanthoman]

radiation?

sorry inadvertant double post