Calcium in the wild?

[jamest0o0]

So maybe this has been brought up, but where do chameleons get a steady source of calcium from in the wild? Considering most insects have an imbalanced phosphorus to calcium ratio, what makes this any different? Is it the way our feeders are raised or something else. I feel like there's a missing piece here that I'm not fully understanding.

 

[Carlton]

We are trying to compensate for several things:

1. a very limited diet....a few commercially-raised feeders compared to a diverse selection available in the wild. There are probably micro-nutrient influences we don't yet understand.
2. feeders eating less than ideal commercial diets as compared to a wide variety of nutrients in a wild situation.
3. less than ideal lighting that also affects Vit D3, calcium phosphorus metabolism

 

[kinyonga]

This might help a bit...
https://www.chameleonforums.com/threads/chameleons-stomach-content.158304/

 

[leedragon]

snails and suchs? maybe insects that eat on the bones of dead animals, many possibilities

 

[kinyonga]

Calcium...
https://edibug.wordpress.com/nutritional-info/
Edible Insects - Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations
https://books.google.ca/books?id=Vk...nepage&q=calcium content caterpillars&f=false

 

[JoeDigiorgio]

We are trying to compensate for several things:

1. a very limited diet....a few commercially-raised feeders compared to a diverse selection available in the wild. There are probably micro-nutrient influences we don't yet understand.
2. feeders eating less than ideal commercial diets as compared to a wide variety of nutrients in a wild situation.
3. less than ideal lighting that also affects Vit D3, calcium phosphorus metabolism

As simple and vague as this answer is, I feel like it covers pretty much all the reasons we are playing with one arm behind our back with the nutritional needs of many reptiles not just chameleons.

 

[jamest0o0]

I don't buy the whole insects eating different things in the wild. It wouldn't be enough to make up for the calcium ratio unless the insect itself had more calcium. Like with snails or BSFL. Maybe some that eat stuff Like bone, but how common is that? I guess it would make sense if there is more variety of insects out there that do have good calcium ratios that chameleons are eating. Lighting makes a lot of sense too. John courtney Smith on the CBP believes it comes from eating insects that consumed or carry dirt on them and by even eating the soil itself at times.

Anyway, it just seems weird we don't exactly know where they get calcium.i can see with larger species eating whole prey digesting the bones and organs. I guess we could always remember that chameleons don't live that long in the wild too.

 

[nightanole]

Ill throw a monkey into the wrench, calcium is a poison to most insects. Most insects are not eating "the good stuff" in the wild. So its possible the bugs are just slowly killing themselves by eating "crappy to them" diets that are high in calcium, or they build up this "poison" over time, and the ones on deaths door are the ones eaten first.

I still dont buy the idea that wild bugs are naturally healthy AND have high calcium.

 

[JoeDigiorgio]

I think a big detail here is the difference between "high" calcium and the ratio of calcium to phosphorus in the diet. They don't necessarily need to be taking in huge amounts of calcium to avoid MBD, they just need to be spared a lot of the phosphorus we give them in high phos insects and gutloads.

Combine that with a healthier vitamin and mineral content from the x-factor of being in the wild and all the natural sunlight there is and the recipe is there.

 

[jamest0o0]

I think the light is a big thing. I do not believe they have a healthier vitamin/mineral content though. Everyone seems to ignore the fact they live for an average of 3-5 more years in captivity. I don't think we give ourselves enough credit lol.

 

[jannb]

I think it has allot to do with the gutload. I used nothing but Cricket Crack for years along with a variety of greens, veggie and fruit. Back then I used supplements and my Vet would tell me the chameleons were over supplemented. He could tell from the x-rays and blood work. So a few years ago I stopped using any supplements at all and rotate Cricket Crack with Bug Buffet along with the greens, veggies and fruits. My guys get year round outside time...probably 20 to 30 hours a week and they get good reports at the vet now.

 

[JoeDigiorgio]

Yea I think we don't put enough value on constant sunlight. I don't think wild insects are higher in anything, but I do believe there is a better balance in calcium : phosphorus and wider variety of available macro and micro nutrients because of the variety in feeders.

To touch on the longer life span in captivity, that's to be expected. Any animal with proper husbandry should live longer in captivity. We have one job and it's to create a perfect world scenario for them lol If one were to take away the rigors of wild life and only leave the positive aspects I would hope they would live as long or longer than in captivity. The extended life span has more to it than just nutrition. Nobody ever saw a case of wild mbd

 

[leedragon]

well. there is a shit lot more insects in the wild as well. with different compositions and different ratios of thing in their body. well, and they eat aloooooooot of different things as well.

 

[jamest0o0]

The thing is there's only so many vitamins and minerals. As @jannb said, proper gutloading should have them all in good amounts. I know I keep saying it, but the scientist in CBP swears our gutload is far superior than what they get in the wild and that most chameleons die due to parasites and health issues. The rigors of the wild are mainly due to lack of nutrition, followed by illness or being predated upon I'd imagine? Sure we don't want to replicate that... the foods/water we offer are most likely a direct reason for longer lives. The only thing we don't match is the sunlight imo.

 

[Carlton]

I think a big detail here is the difference between "high" calcium and the ratio of calcium to phosphorus in the diet. They don't necessarily need to be taking in huge amounts of calcium to avoid MBD, they just need to be spared a lot of the phosphorus we give them in high phos insects and gutloads.

Combine that with a healthier vitamin and mineral content from the x-factor of being in the wild and all the natural sunlight there is and the recipe is there.

I didn't mean to suggest wild insects are HIGH in calcium, just that there is probably a lot of subtler nutritional gaps in commercially raised feeders. And, there are micronutrients and more diversity in their nutritional values.

 

[JoeDigiorgio]

I didn't mean to suggest wild insects are HIGH in calcium, just that there is probably a lot of subtler nutritional gaps in commercially raised feeders. And, there are micronutrients and more diversity in their nutritional values.

Yea I agree. I think the emphasis in captivity is on nutritionally dense gutloads but we forget that actual gut content of the bugs is only a portion of the equation. Every species potentially stores and utilizes nutrients differently based on need. A cricket is a cricket is a cricket. Aside from what's currently sitting in its gut, it's basically storing the nutrients it needs and excreting everything else.

In the wild, with literally hundreds of potential prey species, it isn't hard to imagine a more balanced nutrient profile across them all. Remember chameleons evolved to get what they need from what's available where they come from, not the 10 or so feeders we have to offer. Therefore we must play from behind to compensate. And I think for the most part we do a good job of it.

 

[jamest0o0]

I agree with that, but humans also do well with a huge variety, but at the end of the day, you could mix and match 10-20 different fruits, veggies, meats, fish, etc and you'd be set for the most part. Just gets boring eating the same