Calcium PLUS - how often?

[Kmw]

What do you think about using a plain calcium everyday, and the calcium plus say once a week, or twice a month.. in place of the 3 supplement rotation? Is it good enough to replace both a multi V and a D3 supplement?

 

[sandrachameleon]

Rep Cal is the oddity of the D3 supplement category at 400,000 IU/kg (over 1,000,000 IU/lb), I don't think any chams should be getting that stuff except for therapeutic reasons.

It is a very potent product. Likely better suited to desert reptiles than chameleons. Yet I used it as my calcium +D3 product for over a decade without issues (I did not follow the directions on the label, I was using it twice a month only, AND I was using ReptiGLO not ReptiSun tubes at that time, which meant lower UVB available for self-production).

I think the key to supplements is moderation. I prefer to get nutrition into my chameleons the old fashioned way (via the actual food bugs!).

I think the common problem is lack of knowledge and a natural tendency to think more must be better (or to follow the directions on labels that are rarely right for chameleons). When even the knowledgeable can be swept up in the enthusiastic tide of the crowd, I have to worry about the newbie owners when they see blanket "one size fits all" solutions to supplementing questions.

 

[Zen Reptiles]

From my understanding, vitamin A takes precedence over vitamin D3 for absorption in the gut. IMO they should never be given at the same time.

I am going to go back to using calcium very lightly at every feeding, and I'm going to experiment using the Calcium PLUS and/or the Supervite with different animals to see their reactions. I don't think I will go back to other brands because Repashy is superior quality, I just think the recommendations for chameleons in specific are way off.

Probably Supervite well dusted on a few bugs - not an entire feeding - once a week.

I know my guys must be getting enough D3 from lights so I might even do the Calcium PLUS just once or twice a month or rotate the Supervite and PLUS with each other.

If I feel the Vitamin A is not doing its job in the Repashy supplements, I will go back to what I know works which is Retinyl palmitate + Halibut liver oil, one drop on one bug once a month and cut down the Supervite/PLUS to once every two weeks instead of once a week (so using each one once a month). I think the fact the retinyl palmitate + halibut is liquid helps to be absorbed better than a powder but that's just my opinion.

I feel confident about that regimen in combination with gut loading and variety.

Then in another year we'll see the results I guess! lol Thanks everyone for sharing your experience and thoughts.

 

[Zen Reptiles]

It is a very potent product. Likely better suited to desert reptiles than chameleons. Yet I used it as my calcium +D3 product for over a decade without issues (I did not follow the directions on the label, I was using it twice a month only, AND I was using ReptiGLO not ReptiSun tubes at that time, which meant lower UVB available for self-production).

I think the key to supplements is moderation. I prefer to get nutrition into my chameleons the old fashioned way (via the actual food bugs!).

I think the common problem is lack of knowledge and a natural tendency to think more must be better (or to follow the directions on labels that are rarely right for chameleons). When even the knowledgeable can be swept up in the enthusiastic tide of the crowd, I have to worry about the newbie owners when they see blanket "one size fits all" solutions to supplementing questions.

I kept a female veiled healthy and happy for 8 years with normal house UV lights (no UVB) and Rep Cal once to twice a month. This was under the recommendation of an old friend who got me into the cham hobby who kept & bred over a dozen different species this way......he thought UVB lights were a scam but this was over a decade ago when that was mostly true. I think Rep Cal has it's place and that is when there is no UVB exposure or very little or when you need to rehab an MBD cham.

 

[Bernie]

Does anyone actually know how much D3 absorption a panther requires?

My Cham's get very little natural sunlight here in the UK. I provide T5 6% lights for them which are quite powerful.

I dust twice a month with ZooMed ReptiCalcium (10,390IU). I dont use any other products with a D3 content.

Would you say I a making a fair judgement?

 

[pamnsam94]

From my understanding, vitamin A takes precedence over vitamin D3 for absorption in the gut. IMO they should never be given at the same time.

I am going to go back to using calcium very lightly at every feeding, and I'm going to experiment using the Calcium PLUS and/or the Supervite with different animals to see their reactions. I don't think I will go back to other brands because Repashy is superior quality, I just think the recommendations for chameleons in specific are way off.

Probably Supervite well dusted on a few bugs - not an entire feeding - once a week.

I know my guys must be getting enough D3 from lights so I might even do the Calcium PLUS just once or twice a month or rotate the Supervite and PLUS with each other.

If I feel the Vitamin A is not doing its job in the Repashy supplements, I will go back to what I know works which is Retinyl palmitate + Halibut liver oil, one drop on one bug once a month and cut down the Supervite/PLUS to once every two weeks instead of once a week (so using each one once a month). I think the fact the retinyl palmitate + halibut is liquid helps to be absorbed better than a powder but that's just my opinion.

I feel confident about that regimen in combination with gut loading and variety.

Then in another year we'll see the results I guess! lol Thanks everyone for sharing your experience and thoughts.

For what it's worth, I'm lightly dusting with Repashy's Calcium (no D3) on most feeder's (except on Phoenix Worms) on my baby quads. I'm using Repashy's Calcium Plus for one feeding every other week. So far (15 weeks), everything is working well. Sometimes I worry about the D3 content (I wish Calcium Plus had none), but I'm solely using it for its preformed vitamin A content. I wonder if the babies would benefit from more preformed A, but I don't want to risk too much D3. I used a single drop of retinol from a human gel tab once on month on the mother of the babies before and during the time she was gravid. I have another female that is about to lay eggs any day now, and I'm a little concerned whether I gave her enough preformed A. She didn't receive it in liquid form, but instead, I've been lightly dusting her feeders with Repashy's Calcium Plus once every other week. If she ends up producing strong neonates, I will assume the Repashy product provided enough preformed A. I've considered using Reptivite without D3 (it has a little less than half the preformed A that Repashy's Calcium Plus has) because I feel I could use it twice as often (smaller amounts more frequently) plus it has no vitamin D3. I've ordered some and will have it by Monday.

Perry

 

[Zen Reptiles]

I don't know the actual measurement and concentration that should be in their blood, I do know that natural exposure to UVB regulates itself and the body knows when to produce it and when to stop.

That is to say, once the tank is full of D3 the body does not keep trying to fill it past full.

Supplements however can be filled past full and cause hypervitaminosis d3. Where there are no negative affects with prolonged exposure to reasonable UVB levels.

Maybe someone with some medical background can answer your question with exact numbers, but I'd say you are making a fair judgement....you are covering the natural exposure to a UVB source and covering any deficiencies in the bulb by adding a small amount of supplemented d3 twice a month.

 

[pssh]

Rep Cal is the oddity of the D3 supplement category at 400,000 IU/kg (over 1,000,000 IU/lb), I don't think any chams should be getting that stuff except for therapeutic reasons

I think you are getting lb and kg confused as there are roughly 2.2 lbs in a kg.

Anyways, I too had decided that I was not comfortable using that much D3 and vit A every day for my animals. Dont use it more than once a week personally because of it.

 

[carol5208]

I kept a female veiled healthy and happy for 8 years with normal house UV lights (no UVB) and Rep Cal once to twice a month. This was under the recommendation of an old friend who got me into the cham hobby who kept & bred over a dozen different species this way......he thought UVB lights were a scam but this was over a decade ago when that was mostly true. I think Rep Cal has it's place and that is when there is no UVB exposure or very little or when you need to rehab an MBD cham.

so you are saying you used housebulbs (uva) and not uvb for 8 years without issue?? Did your chameleons get taken outside for natural sunlight then?. I was always under the impression that a chameleon could not survive without uvb????? I have seen so many sick chameleons on here who were not exposed to uvb.

 

[deadhd5]

For my Panther I cut my repashy calcium + with dinofuel 50/50. Don't dust the silkworms. Good veggie and fruit gutload for the dubia and crix.

I refuse to stress about this!

 

[sandrachameleon]

so you are saying you used housebulbs (uva) and not uvb for 8 years without issue?? Did your chameleons get taken outside for natural sunlight then?. I was always under the impression that a chameleon could not survive without uvb????? I have seen so many sick chameleons on here who were not exposed to uvb.

UVB is strongly recommended, because it is the natural way to produce D3. It may also be visible to chameleons, so helping to produce a more natural spectrum. But they wont die without UVB so long as they are getting D3 in other ways. Its just that supplements are difficult to judge the amount needed, whereas the chameleon's body will adjust under UVB to what it needs. So UVB is better, through tubes or natural sunlight, that depending on supplements alone IHMO

 

[Zach Valois]

Well, what a seemingly obscure topic.

I am glad this is being brought up, very constructive and much needed topic to cover...again.

Going off of Kammers personal endorsement, I started using this product during every feeding (per the guidance of Kammers). About six months down the road I started to see numerous issues. That is which more or less mirror the aforementioned results as noted by other board members earlier.

About three months ago, I went back to the somewhat traditional method of using Rep-cal without D3 for almost every feeding, D3 twice to once a feeding twice a month, and Rep-cal multivite once a feeding once to twice a month.

Superficially, the animals 'appear' to be responding positively to the change.



I find it hard to stray from the tried-and-true methods used by many, that of which appears to be the Rep-cal trio of supplements, and 5.0 Reptisuns (I have decided to stick with compacts for now).


About six months ago, I sold a large group of panthers to a local pet store. Their care and setups were identical to mine, with the exception of the following:

-I used 5.0 linear bulbs vs. their 5.0/2.0 double compact bulb setup.
-I used Calcium Plus vs. their traditional ratio of daily cal w/o D3, D3 a few time a month, and Rep-cal multi vit a few times a month.
-I use mixed dark leaf greens, bell peppers, mixed fruits, calcium loaded Flukers cricket feed, and sweet potato, vs. their Total Bites brand food/water for crickets (the green gel).
-I supplement the diet with numerous insect types vs. they ONLY feed crickets.

Their animals are of the appropriate size for their age and have produced multiple clutches, as where some of mine are still not to breeding size (despite their age).

Why such a stark contrast in results?



Furthermore,

we have discussed several aspects of supplementation on here, with the exception (unless I overlooked it), as to why and how much straight calcium these animals need (I use that in the broad sense, generally applying to Veileds and Panthers). It is not hard for us to get the amount of daily calcium we need. Is is so necessary to provide calcium itself throughout an entire month regime of supplementation?

In conclusion,
as I stated, I will be using the following regime for the given conditions. Please feel free to comment on this.

Chameleon Info:
Your Chameleon - Panther Chameleons, raised from three month olds. Most now around nine to twelve months old.
Handling - Almost never
Feeding - Crickets, mealworms, waxworms, roaches. Adults fed every other day. Gutloaded with dark leaf greens, bell peppers, sweet potato, and various fruits and veggies. Fluker brand high cal cricket feed, occasionally fish flake.
Supplements - for a six month period, Calcium Plus every four of six feedings a week.
New Regime:
Rep Cal w/o D3 - almost every feeding
Rep Cal w/D3 - one to two feedings once to twice a month
Rep Cal multivitamin - one to two feedings once a month
Watering - Mistking, three sprays a day, ranging from 15 second to 40 second intervals. Two hour drip every day, sometimes every other day.
Fecal Description - Never tested fecal. Solid, normal smelling, normal colored regular bowel movements.


Cage Info:
Cage Type - screen cage 18 x 18 36
Lighting - Single Compact Rept-Glo 5.0 in exo terra canopy, single 6500 k plant bulb. 13 hour light cycle (for the past several months, I was using two linear 5.0 Repi-suns per cage). Single 75 watt Exo-terra brand spot bulb housed in aluminum clamp light fixture.
Temperature - average ambient temp of 75-78 F day temp, 65-75 F night temp, basking spot in the mid 90's. As measured by digital and analog thermometers, and temp guns.
Humidity - Mistking system, set for three sprays a day. From 15 seconds to 40 seconds.
Plants - Ficus benjamina
Placement - metal shelves, 12 inches above floor for adults, 4 feet from floor for hatchlings and juveniles.
Location - dedicated arboreal lizard and plant room. Spare bedroom.

 

[SpartyTessy]

Well it looks like I am going to switch back to the old ways of Calcium with no D3 2-4 days a week, Calcium with D3 once every 4-6 weeks, and multivitamin once ever 4-6 weeks and cut out the Repashy Calcium Plus all together for my Jacksons.

 

[volcano]

Well, what a seemingly obscure topic.

I am glad this is being brought up, very constructive and much needed topic to cover...again.

Going off of Kammers personal endorsement, I started using this product during every feeding (per the guidance of Kammers). About six months down the road I started to see numerous issues. That is which more or less mirror the aforementioned results as noted by other board members earlier.

About three months ago, I went back to the somewhat traditional method of using Rep-cal without D3 for almost every feeding, D3 twice to once a feeding twice a month, and Rep-cal multivite once a feeding once to twice a month.

Superficially, the animals 'appear' to be responding positively to the change.



I find it hard to stray from the tried-and-true methods used by many, that of which appears to be the Rep-cal trio of supplements, and 5.0 Reptisuns (I have decided to stick with compacts for now).


About six months ago, I sold a large group of panthers to a local pet store. Their care and setups were identical to mine, with the exception of the following:


-I used 5.0 linear bulbs vs. their 5.0/2.0 double compact bulb setup.
-I used Calcium Plus vs. their traditional ratio of daily cal w/o D3, D3 a few time a month, and Rep-cal multi vit a few times a month.

-I use mixed dark leaf greens, bell peppers, mixed fruits, calcium loaded Flukers cricket



















feed, and sweet potato, vs. their Total Bites brand food/water for crickets (the green gel).
-I supplement the diet with numerous insect types vs. they ONLY feed crickets.

Their animals are of the appropriate size for their age and have produced multiple clutches, as where some of mine are still not to breeding size (despite their age).

Why such a stark contrast in results?



Furthermore,

we have discussed several aspects of supplementation on here, with the exception (unless I overlooked it), as to why and how much straight calcium these animals need (I use that in the broad sense, generally applying to Veileds and Panthers). It is not hard for us to get the amount of daily calcium we need. Is is so necessary to provide calcium itself throughout an entire month regime of supplementation?

In conclusion,
as I stated, I will be using the following regime for the given conditions. Please feel free to comment on this.

Chameleon Info:
Your Chameleon - Panther Chameleons, raised from three month olds. Most now around nine to twelve months old.
Handling - Almost never
Feeding - Crickets, mealworms, waxworms, roaches. Adults fed every other day. Gutloaded with dark leaf greens, bell peppers, sweet potato, and various fruits and veggies. Fluker brand high cal cricket feed, occasionally fish flake.
Supplements - for a six month period, Calcium Plus every four of six feedings a week.
New Regime:
Rep Cal w/o D3 - almost every feeding
Rep Cal w/D3 - one to two feedings once to twice a month
Rep Cal multivitamin - one to two feedings once a month
Watering - Mistking, three sprays a day, ranging from 15 second to 40 second intervals. Two hour drip every day, sometimes every other day.
Fecal Description - Never tested fecal. Solid, normal smelling, normal colored regular bowel movements.


Cage Info:
Cage Type - screen cage 18 x 18 36
Lighting - Single Compact Rept-Glo 5.0 in exo terra canopy, single 6500 k plant bulb. 13 hour light cycle (for the past several months, I was using two linear 5.0 Repi-suns per cage). Single 75 watt Exo-terra brand spot bulb housed in aluminum clamp light fixture.
Temperature - average ambient temp of 75-78 F day temp, 65-75 F night temp, basking spot in the mid 90's. As measured by digital and analog thermometers, and temp guns.
Humidity - Mistking system, set for three sprays a day. From 15 seconds to 40 seconds.
Plants - Ficus benjamina
Placement - metal shelves, 12 inches above floor for adults, 4 feet from floor for hatchlings and juveniles.
Location - dedicated arboreal lizard and plant room. Spare bedroom.

You my friend are very intelligent! I am glad you realized this, as I have too. Just because someone endorses it doesn't make it good. They just found it to be an easy sale. Tried and true methods are the best. I would avoid anything flukers, fish flakes, and mealworms. There are much better super foods out there. Flukers is garbage and fish flakes are not acceptable.

 

[tkilgour]

John, not that I condone fish flakes and I do not feed them to my bugs. However, what if the fish flakes are pure spirulina? My marine fish receive an extremely diverse diet. However, I do feed the herbivore fish pure spirulina fish flakes. The ingredients say 100% spirulina.

 

[Hoj]

Wow what a great thread!! I dont think that the repashy calcium plus should be avoided it is a great product.
I do however beleive that most memebers need to stop just parroting out scheduals and doing things the cookie cutter way.
Every animal is different even within the same species and supplelementation needs to be adjusted accorcingly.
I think Perry hit it on the head when he mentioned the D3 build up. I belive to be a serious issue regarding montane chams and anything other than a veiled on panther for that matter.
As well I think we need to start looking at how much the uvb has improved in the last while. With stronger lights ( arcadia ) and members switching to 10.0 for more UVB we must now take a look at typical D3 suppelelmenting advise.
I have been using the repashy calcium plus for over a year now and have nothing but good results.
However I have removed it from my montane regime for now to try and get a better grip on the whole vit A/D3 balance.
I have found that with my guys ( quads for the most part ) respond better to low low levels of D3 and a typcial ammount of prEformed Vit a and calcium.
To add if you have good strong UVB and a good gutloading regime than for veileds and panthers I would use the reapashy every 4-5 times a week and plain calcium 1 time. ( feeding everyday )
In closing I dont think the anwser to swtch to Rep-cal it is a very very strong product and could result in very similar issues very quickly. Not to mention I am in the prEformed vit A camp and rep-cal uses prOformed Vit A.
Hope that ramble makes some sence.

 

[tkilgour]

I do however beleive that most memebers need to stop just parroting out scheduals and doing things the cookie cutter way.
Every animal is different even within the same species and supplelementation needs to be adjusted accorcingly.

I agree with that. I think keepers should focus more on a healthy, organic, gutloading regime and use less supplements in general.

 

[sandrachameleon]

....
I do however beleive that most memebers need to stop just parroting out scheduals and doing things the cookie cutter way.
Every animal is different even within the same species and supplelementation needs to be adjusted accorcingly.

YES

I agree with that. I think keepers should focus more on a healthy, organic, gutloading regime and use less supplements in general.

YES

I have always agreed with and tried to tell people this.
There is NO one-size-fits-all rule.

The type of chameleon matters
the type of lighting and amount of sun exposure matters
the age and gendre can matter
The type of prey offered matters. The person who relies heavily on crickets and roaches should do things differently than the person who uses terrestrial isopods, butterworms, silkworms and grasshoppers.
the Brand of supplement matters
etc

 

[Allen Repashy]

Hi Folks,

Someone just pointed me to this thread. I am on the road right now, but want to start by pointing out a few things in regards to vitamin D, A, and calcium..... they all require balance... Saying there is too much Vitamin A in the product is not a statement based on science or fact. There is an optimum ratio of Vitamin A to Vitamin D that has shown to be quite consistent across the range of vertebrates.... that ratio is 10 to 1. Calcium Plus follows this rule to the letter. The levels of vitamin D3 in Calcium plus are WAY lower than Repcal and most other products. The levels of D3 in the product are balanced to the amount of elemental calcium in the product in order to provide enough of it to utilize the calcium in the product as efficiently as possible.

Just to clarify what I am saying, is that when you have a balanced ratio of vitamins, saying Too much A... is not correct and you would be more correct saying too much of "Everything" if that was indeed the case. If you were supplementing only vitamin A, then the statement "too much vitamin A" could be quite correct. When fat soluble vitamins are out of balance, bad things can happen.. much worse than high levels of balanced vitamins, if that makes sense.

There are a million reasons that a group of chameleons can have issues, and I feel that blaming it on Vitamin A in my product is a big reach. As mentioned before, the clinical reports of Hypervitamintosis A in reptiles are nearly non existent. Last personal communication I had with Dr. Scott Stahl, he reported that had NEVER personally had a case, and that it was always something else.

Like several of the people with experience on here have said, there are a LOT of variables to consider.....

I just want to clarify that I am not taking this as a bash on my products that I think needs defending. The OP did in fact say they liked the stuff... I just think the OP should keep an open mind and look at other possibilities when searching for an answer. The likelyhood of something like parasites or other illness imho are not something to dismiss.

If someone was reporting issues like this for montane species, I would be thinking differently about it. My post history on here shows that I have agreed that a regiment for these species is likely to require less supplementation...... not a different product, because it is about balance..... but less often. But Veileds and Panthers I just do not see having issues from daily supplementation. The Kammers paved the way with their growout and breeding studies, but many others have reported great success after switching.

I gotta go feed some geckos but will check in again later....

Allen

 

[Trillian]

Just wanted to say I'm a HUGE fan of yours Allen, as are my 10 cresties... Thank you for your valuable input on this thread.