Calling all T. quadricornis keepers!

[jajeanpierre]

Janet,
I've never heard of quad quad with red toenails, however there are definitely q. Gracilior without red toenails.
Q.gracilior tend to have longer slightly thinner horns and the sail on the tail is somewhat diminished compared to q. Quad. If you're getting young or sub adult animals none of this info will be of any use.

I'm a big help aren't I? It's difficult having to rely on the collector and importer for such vital information, but with smaller and/or females you really have no choice.

Thanks.

So you are saying that if I have an imported animal with red nails, it is a gracilior unless it is a hybrid that happened in the wild?

Does anyone know how the red nails are expressed--dominant/recessive?--if a red-nailed gracilior were bred to a clear-nailed quad quad? I ask because I am interested in working with graciliors and want to know the best way to assure I only have graciliors. Some graciliors are obvious, but I did see a couple of males from the February import that were being shown to me as quad quads. They had very big, high tail fins but didn't have the fat pouchy look some of the quad quads have. They did have that stripey scalation on their cheeks and down to their shoulders that graciliors seem to have--not that I know much about identifying them! Their horns and chin spikes seemed coarser than some graciliors. The nails were slightly red, similar to how red my male's were at the time (they were roughly the same size as my male) and I don't think there is any doubt my male is a gracilior. My male's nails are now quite red. The importer was a little surprised when I pointed out the gracilior characteristics and agreed they were graciliors.

 

[bobcochran]

Thanks.

So you are saying that if I have an imported animal with red nails, it is a gracilior unless it is a hybrid that happened in the wild?

Does anyone know how the red nails are expressed--dominant/recessive?--if a red-nailed gracilior were bred to a clear-nailed quad quad? I ask because I am interested in working with graciliors and want to know the best way to assure I only have graciliors. Some graciliors are obvious, but I did see a couple of males from the February import that were being shown to me as quad quads. They had very big, high tail fins but didn't have the fat pouchy look some of the quad quads have. They did have that stripey scalation on their cheeks and down to their shoulders that graciliors seem to have--not that I know much about identifying them! Their horns and chin spikes seemed coarser than some graciliors. The nails were slightly red, similar to how red my male's were at the time (they were roughly the same size as my male) and I don't think there is any doubt my male is a gracilior. My male's nails are now quite red. The importer was a little surprised when I pointed out the gracilior characteristics and agreed they were graciliors.

Yes, I'm saying red toe nails are indicative of graciliors. I also believe in the wild q. Quads and q. Gracilior are geographically separated with areas in between uninhabital for quads. This doesn't mean humans couldn't move them. But, hybrids in the wild are unlikely. Also doesn't mean hybrids wouldn't occur after capture in a holding pen waiting for exportation or at the importers facility after being misidentified.
As for relying on importers for identification-good luck. I received a "female" in the Feb. import that was a young male with his horns broken off! They don't scrutinize all their animals very closely.
Honestly, I have no idea if red or clear toe nails are dominate. Maybe you can contribute some information in this area in the future!

 

[jajeanpierre]

Yes, I'm saying red toe nails are indicative of graciliors. I also believe in the wild q. Quads and q. Gracilior are geographically separated with areas in between uninhabital for quads. This doesn't mean humans couldn't move them. But, hybrids in the wild are unlikely. Also doesn't mean hybrids wouldn't occur after capture in a holding pen waiting for exportation or at the importers facility after being misidentified.
As for relying on importers for identification-good luck. I received a "female" in the Feb. import that was a young male with his horns broken off! They don't scrutinize all their animals very closely.
Honestly, I have no idea if red or clear toe nails are dominate. Maybe you can contribute some information in this area in the future!

No way--you won't find me breeding clear nails to red nails. If graciliors are the only quad with red nails, I will restrict all my graciliors to red-nailed individuals. Why give up that really unique feature anyway? I certainly will never knowingly breed a quad to a gracilior.

I had a similar thing happen--I was shown a stunningly blue 12g individual quad quad that was supposed to be female. On closer examination, you could see the rub of the horn nubs. He is the father of those little quad quad babies that just hatched almost 2 weeks ago. His horns did grow in but the tip is rounded from the rub.

 

[bobcochran]

No way--you won't find me breeding clear nails to red nails. If graciliors are the only quad with red nails, I will restrict all my graciliors to red-nailed individuals. Why give up that really unique feature anyway? I certainly will never knowingly breed a quad to a gracilior.

I had a similar thing happen--I was shown a stunningly blue 12g individual quad quad that was supposed to be female. On closer examination, you could see the rub of the horn nubs. He is the father of those little quad quad babies that just hatched almost 2 weeks ago. His horns did grow in but the tip is rounded from the rub.

Not even to broaden sciences knowledge?
I ended up keeping my Nubby male also, he has great colors and I bred him to the larger wild caught female. No eggs yet!

Maybe you could get some pink toe nails?

 

[jajeanpierre]

Not even to broaden sciences knowledge?
I ended up keeping my Nubby male also, he has great colors and I bred him to the larger wild caught female. No eggs yet!

Maybe you could get some pink toe nails?

HAHAHAHA! No hybrids--I'm a purist! I would have to cull or keep them all, neither of which appeals to me.

 

[jajeanpierre]

I've now had two clutches of quads hatch, the babies from my female gracilior imported gravid that hatched in August and a clutch of cbb quad quads hatched December 4th.

The babies look very different to me, but I have only had these two clutches, so zippo experience with either species.

The quad babies seemed a lot brighter with clear blues, greens and white. The whites make their mottling stand out more. The graciliors always seemed more yellow and never showed any white. The quads all have a lot white, making them more distinctly mottled than the baby graciliors ever were.

Has anyone else noticed a difference between the babies of quads and graciliors? The mother of the gracilior babies is a chartreuse green. I have another gracilior female that is a very beautiful sea green color with rich aqua blue cheeks even when relaxed, so that might be part of the difference between them--the base color of their mother. Still, none of my gracilior babies showed any white. Here's a couple of pictures taken of a quad baby and a gracilior baby at the same age, about two weeks.

First the gracilior baby, about 14 or 15 days old. Lots of mottling but no white.

Next is the quad quad baby, same age as above. Note the brighter greens and especially the white mottling which the gracilior babies never showed.

 

[bobcochran]

That's kind of funny, I think as adults if one has a little more contrast in their patterns it would be the q. Gracilior!
Great neonate pictures!

 

[jajeanpierre]

That's kind of funny, I think as adults if one has a little more contrast in their patterns it would be the q. Gracilior!
Great neonate pictures!

None of the graciliors have ever showed the white or the browns that the baby quads have turned. I am very confident that they are pure graciliors, not an accidently breeding with a quad at the export holding facility. They all have the stripey scalation on their cheeks. Some are suggesting a hint of red toe nails and pretty much all the males had the second set of horns starting.

 

[DGray]

Hello all
I'm returning to chameleon keeping after an 8 year hiatus. I am focusing on quad. gracilior at this time.
Welcome to comment and contact.
Cheers,
Dave

P.S. Here's a pic of my late WC male that I don't think I have shared:

 

[jajeanpierre]

Hello all
I'm returning to chameleon keeping after an 8 year hiatus. I am focusing on quad. gracilior at this time.
Welcome to comment and contact.
Cheers,
Dave

P.S. Here's a pic of my late WC male that I don't think I have shared:

What a magnificent sail fin!!! Do you still have him?

He looks more quad than gracilior to me. Do you have better pictures of him? His face and claws? @bobcochran

 

[bobcochran]

What a magnificent sail fin!!! Do you still have him?

He looks more quad than gracilior to me. Do you have better pictures of him? His face and claws? @bobcochran

He looks q. quad to me too. Janet. He also says above the male is deceased.
Dave, if you want q. qracilior Janet is the person you want to contact.

 

[jajeanpierre]

He looks q. quad to me too. Janet. He also says above the male is deceased.
Dave, if you want q. qracilior Janet is the person you want to contact.

I missed that "late WC male" part the first time @bobcochran . Still a magnificent sail fin. @DGray

 

[lycan_megura0523]

I have 5 graciliors 2 males and 3 females I am planning to start a breeding project with them I have done my research but am really nervous to start. any advice from personal experiences would be very much appreciated.

 

[lycan_megura0523]

I have 5 graciliors 2 males and 3 females I am planning to start a breeding project with them I have done my research but am really nervous to start. any advice from personal experiences would be very much appreciated.

I agree with the above statement if you want a beautiful and healthy Gracilior Janet is definitely the person to get from I got all of mine from her.

 

[jajeanpierre]

I have 5 graciliors 2 males and 3 females I am planning to start a breeding project with them I have done my research but am really nervous to start. any advice from personal experiences would be very much appreciated.

I don't recognize you by your user name, but I think I know who you are. Send me an email and we can talk. My advice will be dependent on their ages and their pedigrees. There are very few bloodlines so I want to help you get the most genetically diverse group you can.

 

[DGray]

As some of you surmised, the previous group of quads I kept were T. quad. quadricornis. I am sorry I do not have very many good pictures of that male.
As I have written before, I used to work in pet stores and animal importers, and I saw a lot of quads (and other chams) over the years. They were all quad quads as far as I could see. It seems to me that the gracilior did not start to appear here until about 12 years ago. Any other opinions on that timeline?
The group I kept around 2009-2011 seemed typically calm and sociable, with the exception of one female who was somewhat aggressive with cagemates over food. She eventually had to be caged separately full time. Gravid females got a private "maternity ward" cage, of course. Usually, quads seem to not mind other quads close to them.
San Francisco is cool and humid, and it makes a good imitation of the high-altitude climate they come from. I will summer them outside, once I have built a secure pen ( to protect them from the <insert curse word here> raccoons ).