Can chameleons go on planes?

[jajeanpierre]

I got my quote from the cites.org website. I'm not trying to argue with you, just clarify the definition of "threatened and endangered" as it pertains to CITES. Maybe a better term for CITES Appendix II species is "at risk for endangerment". Its important to make the distinction between a formal designation of Threatened or Endangered and designations of species that might become so in future, because the former category triggers more laws and regulations than the latter does. An expert on all this is our own Chris Anderson.

Yes, the US has its own endangered species act as do some other nations, but it doesn't really add another regulatory layer in addition to CITES. It is the law that authorizes the USA to uphold CITES, it gives our federal government the authority to add protections to vulnerable species within the USA, provide funding to recovery programs, prohibit "take" (disturbance, injure, kill, or possess), and also to protect those species' habitat. You'll find that the list of US T&E species are included on CITES Appendix I, not Appendix II. Some CITES signatory nations can decide to restrict or prohibit export/import of additional species that are NOT on Appendix I across their own borders, which confuses things further. I think the EU has created its own restrictions on import of some cham species including Parson's. Parson's are NOT listed on CITES Appendix I that I know of. There has been a petition to add Parson's to Appendix I but it was not ratified by the member nations.

In my former life with USFWS I evaluated and issued take, possession, and research permits for T&E species for the western states and was part of the approval process along with the DC Office of Administrative Authority to issue import/export permits. The process for CITES Appendix I species has more steps (for example there is a mandatory public review period for each application),requires more approvals, takes longer and costs more than the processing of CITES Appendix II or III species permits. Within the USA, interstate commerce/transport of threatened and endangered species (Appendix I) is regulated by the Lacey Act. There are no Lacey Act permits required to transport CITES Appendix II chameleon species within the USA unless for some reason an individual state has decided to regulate transport of those species.

But as you said, the bottom line really is that exporting and (sometimes) importing chameleons across international borders is expensive, time-consuming, and complicated.

I think we are quibbling over nothing because, bottom line, if someone is moving a chameleon across an international border, they had better have all the proper permits they need from CITES plus any permits the importing and exporting country requires or they are smuggling wildlife.

In addition to CITES, the US does has the Endangered Species Act, which is completely separate from CITES.

CITES deals with international trade--crossing international borders--of flora, fauna and parts/products of said flora/fauna that is on its lists and does not address what happens within the borders of any country. CITES does not regulate whether or not I kill and eat my CITES I birds and I can freely transport them across state lines. Again, CITES does not regulate anything except international trade.

The Endangered Species Act does regulate possession, sale and transport of endangered animals within the borders of the United States. It does not include all CITES Appendix I animals. For example, Blue Throated Macaws are CITES I. There are only about 250 individual birds in the wild--they are the most endangered species of macaw in the wild. Up until a year or two ago, they were not on the Endangered Species Act list so could be moved and sold within the United States. That has since changed and now they cannot be sold across (US) state lines. Another CITES I macaw, the Scarlet Macaw, shares the same CITES I status that Blue Throats have. However, Scarlet macaws are not part of the Endangered Species Act.

The two regulations ESA and CITES are not in any way connected. And, yes, the ESA does add another regulatory layer to the international transport of species on its list above and beyond CITES.

I'm not an expert on ESA or the Lacey Act, but am pretty familiar with CITES. It looks like PETA-type group will manage to get a couple of macaws that I have included under ESA, which will be a royal pain if I ever move.

 

[Carlton]

I think we are quibbling over nothing because, bottom line, if someone is moving a chameleon across an international border, they had better have all the proper permits they need from CITES plus any permits the importing and exporting country requires or they are smuggling wildlife.

In addition to CITES, the US does has the Endangered Species Act, which is completely separate from CITES.

CITES deals with international trade--crossing international borders--of flora, fauna and parts/products of said flora/fauna that is on its lists and does not address what happens within the borders of any country. CITES does not regulate whether or not I kill and eat my CITES I birds and I can freely transport them across state lines. Again, CITES does not regulate anything except international trade.

The Endangered Species Act does regulate possession, sale and transport of endangered animals within the borders of the United States. It does not include all CITES Appendix I animals. For example, Blue Throated Macaws are CITES I. There are only about 250 individual birds in the wild--they are the most endangered species of macaw in the wild. Up until a year or two ago, they were not on the Endangered Species Act list so could be moved and sold within the United States. That has since changed and now they cannot be sold across (US) state lines. Another CITES I macaw, the Scarlet Macaw, shares the same CITES I status that Blue Throats have. However, Scarlet macaws are not part of the Endangered Species Act.

The two regulations ESA and CITES are not in any way connected. And, yes, the ESA does add another regulatory layer to the international transport of species on its list above and beyond CITES.

I'm not an expert on ESA or the Lacey Act, but am pretty familiar with CITES. It looks like PETA-type group will manage to get a couple of macaws that I have included under ESA, which will be a royal pain if I ever move.

Right, no need to quibble really. An interesting discussion anyway!

If anyone really wants to read about the ESA and CITES, here's a link:

http://www.fws.gov/international/la...conservation-laws/endangered-species-act.html

 

[Lathis]

This has been really interesting. Thanks for sharing @jajeanpierre and @Carlton.

I've (happily) never had to deal with any of these issues, but I think it's good for everyone to understand the complications of dealing with controlled, threatened, protected, and endangered species, including what goes into importing an animal. More respect all around.

 

[Carlton]

but I think it's good for everyone to understand the complications of dealing with controlled, threatened, protected, and endangered species, including what goes into importing an animal. More respect all around.

And, why it can become important to keep records of the origin of any exotic pet you own. With more and more states requiring permits to keep exotics, documentation can save you heartache. Responsible sellers should always provide copies of CITES import/export or interstate permit paperwork for wc or captive hatch imported animals. If they don't automatically offer one, request it! CBB chams should have at least a detailed letterhead receipt. I almost had to give up 2 beloved aviary songbirds when I moved to NJ because they would not issue a permit for them without proof of purchase prior to the enactment of the exotic bird protection act. I'd owned the birds over 10 years and couldn't prove their original purchase was before the act was even thought of. Luckily the bird shop was still in business after all that time and they came up with a receipt dated prior to the act.

 

[jajeanpierre]

Right, no need to quibble really. An interesting discussion anyway!

If anyone really wants to read about the ESA and CITES, here's a link:

http://www.fws.gov/international/la...conservation-laws/endangered-species-act.html

There can be some interesting stories around borders and wildlife.

And, why it can become important to keep records of the origin of any exotic pet you own. With more and more states requiring permits to keep exotics, documentation can save you heartache. Responsible sellers should always provide copies of CITES import/export or interstate permit paperwork for wc or captive hatch imported animals. If they don't automatically offer one, request it! CBB chams should have at least a detailed letterhead receipt. I almost had to give up 2 beloved aviary songbirds when I moved to NJ because they would not issue a permit for them without proof of purchase prior to the enactment of the exotic bird protection act. I'd owned the birds over 10 years and couldn't prove their original purchase was before the act was even thought of. Luckily the bird shop was still in business after all that time and they came up with a receipt dated prior to the act.

I bought a little parrot out of a pet shop in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia. It had a band and I was able to track down her breeder in South Africa. I got her hatch certificate from the breeder and was able to bring her from Saudi Arabia to Canada, the US Virgin Islands and now Texas. All my CITES documents and hatch certificates (including bands I've had cut off!) are locked up in a safety deposit box. You need to keep everything, even the old CITES permits.

Sorry you lost your birds.

I have one very old African Grey that was given to me many years ago. He was captive bred in Texas--his band shows that--but I can't trace his breeder from his band. I worry about what will happen if I ever move back to Canada.

 

[alphakenc]

I love parrots they are man bestfriend,if u treat them nice they talk n sing if you dont pay them attention,they shrieked n plugged their own feather

 

[Carlton]

There can be some interesting stories around borders and wildlife.
Sorry you lost your birds.

Oh I didn't lose them! Just came close and suffered some heartache. They lived to a ripe old age. They were Pekin robins (Leiothrix) aka Chinese nightingales. Neat little birds though they are not from Peking, not robins, and not nightingales. I've also kept silver-eared mesia (Leiothrix), leafbirds (Chloropsis), a toucan, motmots (my avatar pic), purple honeycreepers (Cyanerpes), and black-faced dacnis (Dacnis). There are pics in my albums.