Can you breed brother and sister panther chameleon?
- Thread starter Rango007
- Start date
Matt Vanilla Gorilla
Chameleon Enthusiast
I am still dying to protect myself and others by finding out who this breeder is! Please! Help us be safe! I would much rather have a chameleon that is second best in looks and #1 in health and longevity than have the most beautiful, most expensive chameleon that only lives for a year as a sickly, crippled, tortured being!
Rango007
Member
And I agree on health .thats my main worry. That's why I never bought one from him. I ordered mine from Backwater.He wanted me to buy from him but I was unsure about the breeding. That was my whole purpose on this conversation. Because I was unsure. But he has been selling for yrs. And they look. Ok. But I personally couldn't get by the inbreeding.
Matt Vanilla Gorilla
Chameleon Enthusiast
Thanks, I realy appreciate it! That is all I needed!
JoshD49
Chameleon Enthusiast
I am so curious who this is since I'm I socal?
I think it's obvious the risks of this and how much it should be avoided. Even if Madagascar is closed we as a community need to work together to keep blood lines pure and free of incest. We should be responsible enough and care for the health of this animals future to reach out here and find non related specimen if we want to breed. I agree with Matt and love how far he will go to avoid this problem.
Matt Vanilla Gorilla
Chameleon Enthusiast
As I mentioned to you in my private message, the person I know gave the healthy babies away as pets, donated the most unique ones to a university for research and kept the rest as his own pets, giving them the best life they can have.
Rango007
Member
Thanks again on all the responses.Everyone told me what I thought from the beginning. I was telling my wife why we never bought from him. I just needed to make sure from everyone that I wasn't wrong for not buying from him. He does seem to breed healthy babies,but looks can be deceving sometimes. So thanks again everyone
jamest0o0
Chameleon Enthusiast
Surprised no one brought up the Hawaiian jacksons chameleons. The usual go-to inbreeding argument lol
Haha! Beat me to it.
By breeding brother and sister you'll just create a Joffrey chameleon. I don't think we want that.
Haha! Beat me to it.
By breeding brother and sister you'll just create a Joffrey chameleon. I don't think we want that.
Brodybreaux25
Chameleon Enthusiast
Thank you for explaining the GOT comments, I’ve been trying to figure out what they were talking about for the last half hour!
Brodybreaux25
Chameleon Enthusiast
Lol you were worried about health so you bought from BW...
Matt Vanilla Gorilla
Chameleon Enthusiast
Haha, funny! Wondered that myself!
Rango007
Member
I bought my male Ambilobe from Backwater and my Female Abanja from FL chams. And I got another male Abanja yesterday from petco. I usually don't like to buy from them but they had him in a cage with two bigger females and he was being bullied. I felt bad and bought him to make sure he got a good home. Whats the scoop on backwater reptiles?
Rango007
Member
My male that I got from them had a eye problem but he's better now. My chams got it better then me ! Lol . I do wanna try to breed them Though . Not brother and sister ! Lol My chams are all from different people and states anyways .But any info is good info,I'm seriously like a sponge when it comes to my chams. Even my wife is jealous cause I spend all my time with them when I'm not working
starter
Member
From the biologist's point of view: Inbreeding and line breeding (in any animal or plant species as well as in humans) results in the formation of a large number of homozygote allels or, to put it in simpler terms, in genes and chromosomes (components of the DNA) which get the same genetic information from the father as they get from the mother. For more detailed scientific information see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inbreeding or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominance_(genetics) - and trust me, the principles are exactly the same for every species, including your particular breed of chameleon.
The results, in simple terms, are that all genetic defects which may be dormant in your adults, will "awaken" and actively show up in your babies. These will be mainly sicklish traits which will cause many of the babies to die naturally or have to be culled as they will be deformed or otherwise sick or debilitated. That is the downside. However, there are also some otherwise passive (scientifically called "recessive") genes which carry desired traits, such as a new colour or other desired physical feature. This feature will then be present visibly in some of the new babies. If you mate two babies who both visibly have such a desired feature, then ALL the resulting babies will have this desired feature, too, and it will remain visible and active in all the future generations, too. That's the upside. The downside is that it will take many generations to come to, while maintaining the one desired new feature, you will have stillborns and will have to cull some babies in every clutch and put effort into breeding out all the many undesired sicklish ones, which can take many years.
How can this be avoided? Only through collaboration of many breeders as it is, for example, common within purebred cat and dog breeder associations.
Let me explain this on the example of the White Swiss Shepherd Dog (which I used to breed in former times). This breed resulted from the old-style German Shepherd Dog, which is, as we all know, black and sable, without inbreeding and with no other dog breed having ever bred in. This is because the colour white has always been genetically "hidden" in many German Shepherds and occasionally a breedeer would get a white puppy from healthy, ethical breeding with genetically unrelated parents. The breeders used to cull them, as this colour was considered a fault. In the 1960ies, however, a group of dog lovers formed an association for the White Shepherd and made it their mission to commit to buy all white-born German Shepherd puppies in the US and Canada, to prevent them from being killed. They then mated the white dogs that have come from different breeders and therefore had no genetic defects (other than the colour White), and out of these matings they got only white puppies, all healthy and without any genetic defects.
So, if there are two chameleon breeders who, by good luck, get babies with a new desired trait, they should breed those those unrelated animals and they will get only babies with the desired trait, but whith no genetic defects. That is responsible breeding and a thousand times better than inbreeding or line-breeding. The latter should only be used if, after diligent and thorough search, no unrelated mating partner with the same, accidentally occurred, desired trait can be found. Today, in the age of the Internet, it should really not be so hard to find a suitable partner somewhere in the world, and the air fare for such a rare animal will definitely pay for itself with rewarding the breeder with healhy happy babies rather than sicklish ones a majority of which he would have to cull.
The results, in simple terms, are that all genetic defects which may be dormant in your adults, will "awaken" and actively show up in your babies. These will be mainly sicklish traits which will cause many of the babies to die naturally or have to be culled as they will be deformed or otherwise sick or debilitated. That is the downside. However, there are also some otherwise passive (scientifically called "recessive") genes which carry desired traits, such as a new colour or other desired physical feature. This feature will then be present visibly in some of the new babies. If you mate two babies who both visibly have such a desired feature, then ALL the resulting babies will have this desired feature, too, and it will remain visible and active in all the future generations, too. That's the upside. The downside is that it will take many generations to come to, while maintaining the one desired new feature, you will have stillborns and will have to cull some babies in every clutch and put effort into breeding out all the many undesired sicklish ones, which can take many years.
How can this be avoided? Only through collaboration of many breeders as it is, for example, common within purebred cat and dog breeder associations.
Let me explain this on the example of the White Swiss Shepherd Dog (which I used to breed in former times). This breed resulted from the old-style German Shepherd Dog, which is, as we all know, black and sable, without inbreeding and with no other dog breed having ever bred in. This is because the colour white has always been genetically "hidden" in many German Shepherds and occasionally a breedeer would get a white puppy from healthy, ethical breeding with genetically unrelated parents. The breeders used to cull them, as this colour was considered a fault. In the 1960ies, however, a group of dog lovers formed an association for the White Shepherd and made it their mission to commit to buy all white-born German Shepherd puppies in the US and Canada, to prevent them from being killed. They then mated the white dogs that have come from different breeders and therefore had no genetic defects (other than the colour White), and out of these matings they got only white puppies, all healthy and without any genetic defects.
So, if there are two chameleon breeders who, by good luck, get babies with a new desired trait, they should breed those those unrelated animals and they will get only babies with the desired trait, but whith no genetic defects. That is responsible breeding and a thousand times better than inbreeding or line-breeding. The latter should only be used if, after diligent and thorough search, no unrelated mating partner with the same, accidentally occurred, desired trait can be found. Today, in the age of the Internet, it should really not be so hard to find a suitable partner somewhere in the world, and the air fare for such a rare animal will definitely pay for itself with rewarding the breeder with healhy happy babies rather than sicklish ones a majority of which he would have to cull.
Calypratus
Established Member
I know some breeders do it but I personally wouldn't risk it.
CamoChameleonsHuman
Chameleon Enthusiast
Inbreeding is how you see so many different varieties of the same species. Take a gargoyle gecko for instance. Many different morphs do to controlled inbreeding. I don't agree with it and would never do it myself however.
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