Cannot get to the bottom of this :(

[Beman]

Thank you for the help!

Yes fecal came back clean.

I hear what you are saying regarding supps but please bear in mind this is a new regimen, not a cause of this issue. Using these new supplements is an attempt to correct the issue. Personally I'm happy with using the calcium plus for the time being as this is a regimen sworn by Kammerflage Creations as a time tested supplement that they have had great success with under similar conditions.

As for the vitamin A Plus, again this is an attempt to correct what I believe could be a Vit A deficiency. Once corrected, I will be dialling this back to using just once or twice a month.

But again these are both new supps of which he has not knowingly ingested any at all (due to not eating other than what he is force fed).

UPDATE: I have knocked the Day Gecko food on the head and replaced it with a 'Bug Juice' type concoction (there goes my brand new blender cup) feed. I gave him two 0.5ml shots of it yesterday and he was looking a little brighter when I went in this morning. He also seemed to take his breakfast a little more willingly this morning. He still struggled but seemed tp voluntarily open up while giving me a "quick, get it over with" sort of death stare

I understand... But Kammerflage recommended the regular calcium plus with the use of T8 UVB fixtures.... We have seen chams develop Edema with the use of this supplement and with T5HO UVB fixtures. So we recommend the LoD version. The regular has more than double the amount of vitamin A and D in it than the LoD version.

Per the vitamin A.... You will over supplement the cham using this. The calcium plus already has the Vitamin A in it at a higher strength. Adding in the vitamin A plus even once a month is going to over do it. You will end up creating a toxicity in the cham as vitamin A and D are fat soluble and stored in the tissues. These do not flush from the body like water soluble supplements. This is literally something they should have no more than 2 times a month in low levels.

You are saying that you have not gotten these into him yet however the vet gave vitamin shots... These can be dangerous in chams depending on what was in the actual shot.

I would highly recommend doing a full husbandry review... Chams are extremely sensitive, one thing being off can make them take a turn for the worse. With the fecal being clean this means it is something in the husbandry/enclosure causing the issue.

 

[dadofduck]

It helps to put your chameleon down onto a rumpled towel (so he has something to grab onto) and then you can just hold him down with one hand and also have some ability to maneuver with same hand as you give meds or what not.

I am trying that later! Thanks!

 

[dadofduck]

I understand... But Kammerflage recommended the regular calcium plus with the use of T8 UVB fixtures.... We have seen chams develop Edema with the use of this supplement and with T5HO UVB fixtures. So we recommend the LoD version. The regular has more than double the amount of vitamin A and D in it than the LoD version.

Per the vitamin A.... You will over supplement the cham using this. The calcium plus already has the Vitamin A in it at a higher strength. Adding in the vitamin A plus even once a month is going to over do it. You will end up creating a toxicity in the cham as vitamin A and D are fat soluble and stored in the tissues. These do not flush from the body like water soluble supplements. This is literally something they should have no more than 2 times a month in low levels.

You are saying that you have not gotten these into him yet however the vet gave vitamin shots... These can be dangerous in chams depending on what was in the actual shot.

I would highly recommend doing a full husbandry review... Chams are extremely sensitive, one thing being off can make them take a turn for the worse. With the fecal being clean this means it is something in the husbandry/enclosure causing the issue.

Hi Beman,
If you listen to the podcast where the guy from Kammerflage discusses this supplementation regimen, he openly admits that he gets exactly the same results from T5 as he does T8.

As I said, I'll be watching the situation very closely. At the moment I'm working on what I believe is a Vitamin A deficiency. I do believe I am seeing some incremental improvements and his weight has just started to rise again. I have absolutely no concerns about either Vitamin A or D over supplementation at this time. I'm concentrating on getting him 100% and then I will start to be more cautious but until he starts eating insects containing these supplements, I am not worried.

Please don't forget just saying that a product is "too much" without factoring in how much of it is going in makes no sense. I typically hand feed my guy so I know when he is eating and how much. I'm also the one who dusts his critters so again I have an idea of how well dusted they are by the time he's caught them. iF/WHE he gains a voracious appetite again and actually starts eating at a regular frequency, then I will be more concerned about the strength of the supplements he is ingesting on a regular basis. Until that point, again I have no concerns.

I do appreciate your input, I just hope you understand I'm not trying to be obtuse. I'm just trying to explain that I've put plenty of thought into it and this is the route I've decided to go down. As a chameleon owner, I will regularly be reviewing his supplements, watching for signs of edema etc. But with this guy, my concern for the foreseeable future is getting enough supplements in him, not too much.

 

[MzLaurie11]

It helps to put your chameleon down onto a rumpled towel (so he has something to grab onto) and then you can just hold him down with one hand and also have some ability to maneuver with same hand as you give meds or what not.

 

[MzLaurie11]

I have done the rumpled towel and it does help. Also i Iike to lie down and prop my head wirh pillows and have everything on a table or chair by my right hand so i can grab what i need. Hornworms were eaxiest to pop in the mouth too. Also dont forget you can put calcium/vit directly in your bug concoction. Just remember to use a small amount. Your vet can get you liquid calcium which can be measured out. 0.2cc every 12 hours. If your vet doesnt have it, at least get a script so u can order online. I am so happy u r seeing a bit of imptovement with your bug concotion. As long as u see improvement no matter how small, you r headed in the right direction. Prayers headed your way!

 

[DonKeesh]

Hello,

You said he came from kammerflage... Do you know the lineage? I have seen several of their nosy bes including mine with genetic defects from line breeding. Specifically chameleons with the sire Daru are demonstrating defects.

 

[Beman]

Hi Beman,
If you listen to the podcast where the guy from Kammerflage discusses this supplementation regimen, he openly admits that he gets exactly the same results from T5 as he does T8.

As I said, I'll be watching the situation very closely. At the moment I'm working on what I believe is a Vitamin A deficiency. I do believe I am seeing some incremental improvements and his weight has just started to rise again. I have absolutely no concerns about either Vitamin A or D over supplementation at this time. I'm concentrating on getting him 100% and then I will start to be more cautious but until he starts eating insects containing these supplements, I am not worried.

Please don't forget just saying that a product is "too much" without factoring in how much of it is going in makes no sense. I typically hand feed my guy so I know when he is eating and how much. I'm also the one who dusts his critters so again I have an idea of how well dusted they are by the time he's caught them. iF/WHE he gains a voracious appetite again and actually starts eating at a regular frequency, then I will be more concerned about the strength of the supplements he is ingesting on a regular basis. Until that point, again I have no concerns.

I do appreciate your input, I just hope you understand I'm not trying to be obtuse. I'm just trying to explain that I've put plenty of thought into it and this is the route I've decided to go down. As a chameleon owner, I will regularly be reviewing his supplements, watching for signs of edema etc. But with this guy, my concern for the foreseeable future is getting enough supplements in him, not too much.

I actually spoke to someone at Kammerflage... and I was speaking to what would happen using both of those... But it seems as though you have it all in hand. Good luck in your search for info.

 

[dadofduck]

I actually spoke to someone at Kammerflage... and I was speaking to what would happen using both of those... But it seems as though you have it all in hand. Good luck in your search for info.

Thanks Beman. FYI I've managed to get some superworms inside him and I've dusted with he cal+ only. I will heed what you say and ensure the vita A+ is only occasional

 

[kinyonga]

Hello,

You said he came from kammerflage... Do you know the lineage? I have seen several of their nosy bes including mine with genetic defects from line breeding. Specifically chameleons with the sire Daru are demonstrating defects.

I don't want to steal the thread, but I would be interested in the type of defects that occur.

 

[DonKeesh]

I don't want to steal the thread, but I would be interested in the type of defects that occur.

Smaller than average adult size, very short tail to to body ratio, issues with hemipenes/hemipenal prolapse have been observed in individuals from different clutches.

 

[kinyonga]

Smaller than average adult size, very short tail to to body ratio, issues with hemipenes/hemipenal prolapse have been observed in individuals from different clutches.

Thanks! Not what I was expecting...but interesting to know.

 

[dadofduck]

Thanks! Not what I was expecting...but interesting to know.

Hi,
He's not from Kammerflage, I just quoted some of their husbandry techniques earlier in the thread. I'm in SE Asia, a way away from most of you guys

 

[dadofduck]

Hello all.
I don't want to jump the gun but he seemed to be a great deal brighter this morning before I left for work. Fingers crossed.

The puffed out chin shows he may be getting some of his mojo back