Carotenoids...

[kinyonga]

http://www.frontiersinzoology.com/content/11/1/26

 

[JoeVet]

Interesting but it didn't address the ultimate question of carotenoids in chameleons....do they convert them to vitamin A. It would have been more interesting if they had not supplemented with a multivitamin containing preformed vitamin A and used a carotenoid that could be converted. Lutein is nothing but an anti-oxidant. Its not going to do much in anyone's diet. Thanks for the link.

 

[GCash]

Since few chameleon species omnivorous, wouldn't it be likely that the insect that directly ingest the carotenoids convert them into the vit. A that's then passed to the insectivore preformed? Seems in line with reports that keepers have better success with the addition of a little preformed A in their supplementation than a beta carotene proformed source alone.

 

[JoeVet]

Did some checking with the scientific literature and found that insets are very low in vitamin A and it is confined to their heads (eyes). There is a paper with a personal communication that suggests that panther chameleons can convert carotene to vitamin A but that was from another paper with another personal communication so not very reliable sources. There is nothing solid in the literature that confirms they can convert beta carotene to vitamin A and most reptile vets believe they need preformed vitamin A in their diet.

 

[kinyonga]

I post articles I find that are interesting. It wasn't posted to prove that chameleons can convert beta carotene.

I've looked at lots of insect information and in many of them the only vitamin A is in the eyes...but there might be some that have more.

I don't give my veiled chameleons any prEformed vitamin A nor do I feed the insects any prEformed vitamin A and I've never had any eye issues with the veileds or any other apparently symptoms of vitamin A deficiency show up in them. Maybe I've just been lucky.

Here are some more articles about carotenoids...
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/zoo.10039/abstract
"Measurable concentrations of retinol at all stages of eggs development in the chameleons suggests effective conversion from carotenoid precursers"....

http://www.jagran.nl/primosite/show.do?ctx=25145,169648,671957
Carotenoid accumulation in insects...

 

[JoeVet]

No argument here especially with an experienced keeper. I love these discussions and I'm still doing my research before I take the plunge with a panther. The other two articles are more interesting. I will see if I can find a copy of the full articles. I was looking at this older paper ( http://www.researchgate.net/publict...45a3&key=d651e24a-6d7f-41e8-804e-339d9c188b53 ) which concludes that vitamin A is a requirement for growth and reproduction but it didn't compare carotenoids with pre-formed vitamin A. I'm getting the pre-formed requirement from veterinary chameleon keepers on a veterinary board.

What do you use as a gut load for your chameleons and do you use a vitamin D supplement?

 

[kinyonga]

I feed/gutload the insects with a wide assortment of greens such as collards, escarole, endive, dandelion greens, kale, etc and veggies such as carrots, sweet red pepper, squash, zucchini, sweet potato, etc.

I use Repti-sun 5.0 UVB lights and keep the temperatures moderate in the basking area (not at the high end of the temperature range).

I dust at most feedings with Rep-call phos free calcium, twice a month with herptivite, and twice a month with Rep-call phos free calcium /D3.

Generally my veiled females live to be six or seven years old and the male's longer.

I have kept quite a few species of chameleon and lots of other lizards as well as turtles/tortoises. I've been keeping, breeding, raising lizards for over 25 years. Most of them were autopsied upon their death. One of my Parson's chameleons initiated the study of CANV here in Canada.

 

[JoeVet]

Thanks. I appreciate your expertise.

 

[GCash]

This has to be one of the best discussions as of late. Could it be possible that of the various carotenes, some are more easliy converted to vit. A by the chameleons? Of which you may be providing but the other common sources may need the boost of supplemental preformed vit. A to allow successful immune response and reproduction?

 

[kinyonga]

GCash said..." the other common sources may need the boost of supplemental preformed vit. A to allow successful immune response and reproduction?"...not sure what you mean.

 

[GCash]

GCash said..." the other common sources may need the boost of supplemental preformed vit. A to allow successful immune response and reproduction?"...not sure what you mean.

Just that if some forms of carotenoids, of which you may be including in your spectrum of fresh fruit and vegetable gutload that others may not, could possibly be easier to convert to vit. A? The other factor that would be worth looking at is the length of time feeder insects are gutloaded. Maybe a few hours to a day before feeding off is not enough and they aren't accumulating sufficient levels as they would if they were raised on the nutritious fodder their whole lives.

 

[JoeVet]

Some carotenoids do not get converted to vitamin A such as lycopene, lutein, and zeaxanthin. These are sold as antioxidant supplements for humans. That is a good question about how long to gut load feeders. I've seen three days but what are the experts doing?

 

[jannb]

I've always heard they should be gut loaded all night before feeding the next morning. I keep the fresh greens, veggies and fruit in for my feeders all the time and then the night before food day I pull the ones I'm going to feed off the next day and put them in a separate container with some of Steve Sims homemade Cricket Crack or Steve McNary's Bug Buffet. I give my guys allot of outside time and use very little supplements. I also have regular blood work and X-rays done and my vet let's me know how everything looks. He had me quit supplements a few years ago because I was over supplementing using the forums method. Dr. Mader said with the large variety of feeders, gut load and outside time they didn't need the calcium nor d3. I just give a tiny bit of multi vitamin about once every three to four weeks.

 

[ataraxia]

Most "eye" related vit A sensitivity issues are with panthers. Here is an interesting read about the different forms of vit A found in bugs. http://www.organicvaluerecovery.com/studies/studies_nutrient_content_of_insects.htm

If you are not a fan of forcibly giving your animal a preformed version. Gut load variety along with a wide variety of bugs will be the success.

 

[kinyonga]

I feed and gutload the insects with the same greens and veggies...is technically they are always gutloaded.

GCash...going back to what I quoted from your post...If my chameleons are healthy and produce healthy babies then they must/should be getting enough vitamin A...no??

Ataraxia...Glad to you posted that link here. (I posted it in another thread already). Regarding panther chameleons...i have never had any eye issues with them other than one case of cancer in the eye....and for many years I have not used prEformed vitamin A with them...not saying that the eye problems can't still have something to do with vitamin A but maybe it's an imbalance in nutrients including vitamin A that is causing them?

 

[JoeVet]

There are a lot of veilds with eye problems being posted on the vet channels. Many suggest a clogged nasolacrimal duct (or the reptile equivalent) which could be vitamin A related or humidity related. They usually recommend flushing the duct, a one time vitamin A injection and increasing the humidity.

There are other causes of eye problems. Many are husbandry related some are not. That's why its good to have experienced keepers willing to share their knowlege and why a good reptile vet is important.

 

[ataraxia]

Kinyonga, i personally believe some individuals are more sensitive than others. I personally have had few individuals that demanded a preformed source, where others in this colony being feed the same exact diet were thriving just fine. With that said, knowing it can be an issue from personal experiences. I implement a preformed source in my groups diet.

I (personally) dont think a veiled can be compared to a panther in this topic. Like Kinyonga i have never had any "sensitive" vitA issues with veileds but its not to say there might be some that might be. I have not come across one yet.

 

[kinyonga]

Ataraxia...I'm not against giving a dose of prEformed vitamin A once in a while if it could be needed! It could very well be that some panthers are more sensitive.

As for veileds, because they are more omnivorous perhaps they can convert beta carotene?

 

[jannb]

Kinyonga, i personally believe some individuals are more sensitive than others. I personally have had few individuals that demanded a preformed source, where others in this colony being feed the same exact diet were thriving just fine. With that said, knowing it can be an issue from personal experiences. I implement a preformed source in my groups diet.

I (personally) dont think a veiled can be compared to a panther in this topic. Like Kinyonga i have never had any "sensitive" vitA issues with veileds but its not to say there might be some that might be. I have not come across one yet.

Dr. Ivan Alfonso has had vitamin A issues with veileds.
http://www.ivanalfonso.com/?s=Vitamin+A

 

[sandrachameleon]

I post articles I find that are interesting. It wasn't posted to prove that chameleons can convert beta carotene.

and i for one have always appreciated your sharing such

I don't give my veiled chameleons any prEformed vitamin A nor do I feed the insects any prEformed vitamin A and I've never had any eye issues with the veileds or any other apparently symptoms of vitamin A deficiency show up in them.

for what its worth, I didnt either for more than a decade. Long-lived, healthy, successfully breeding animals (panthers) nevertheless.