Carrots and Vit A?

[merumontanus]

Vitamin A hurts D3 absorption? So per chance dubia roaches can convert beta carotene to Vit A, would it be a large enough amount to do any damage?

Well, the antagonistic properties of vitamin A have been clearly shown in humans and other animals, so I assume it may have the same effect in chameleons. What I (and others) do is make sure that the administration of pre-formed vitamin A is made in very small quantities, and does not coincide with any dietary D3 supplementation (if any).

I do not mean to cause any panic and instill even more fear on the use of pre-formed vitamin A than it was injected into people's perceptions in decades past. I am merely saying that it is important to understand the role of metabolic processes when supplementing anything. Doing so will put you ahead of the game and allow you to anticipate any problems down the road.

 

[desultadox]

For what it's worth, I never experienced any vitamin A deficiencies until I switched to Dubias as a staple feeder. In fact I relied on them too much and diet variety really suffered, mostly because of their rapid breeding and the fact I couldn't feed them off fast enough! Of course, these were also bred over time by me whereas before I was usually getting bugs in bulk from suppliers. So that is another variable that makes this otherwise ABSOLUTELY SCIENTIFIC (I hope I don't have to tell anyone that's sarcasm) observation somewhat difficult to comprehend. Still, I don't think these esoteric findings should be altogether dismissed.

 

[kinyonga]

There are several things I don't agree with in the site cited by Fabian...
the list (as Syn said) includes broccoli and spinach...I'm sure won't hurt once in a while.

It also says...chameleons "eat small lizards and birds as part of their diet. These species, because of the vegetable matter in their stomach and intestines, provide much higher levels of vitamin A"...if the chameleons don't/can't convert beta carotene then whatever is in the stomach of the insect will not give the chameleon more preformed vitamin A...but the chameleon might get some if the insect can convert the matter in its stomach to preformed.

Interesting article...
http://books.google.ca/books?id=7fQ...X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=9#PPA260,M1

 

[GooglezNvincent]

Ok so i have a question, were you guys saying it would be good or bad to feed your cham a mosquito/mosquito eater?

 

[merumontanus]

Yikes, I'm not sure how I missed that list upon posting last night. Thanks for the heads up, Lynda/Sabrina. I should avoid a vitamin A discussion in the early hours of the morning...

I should make it clear for others reading this thread that I could not agree more with the rejection of broccoli and spinach as a regular form of gutload, as these also play another antagonistic role nutritionally-- they "take away" or "neutralize" other nutrients in large quantities.

I also agree in that, if chameleons cannot convert carotenoids themselves, then the argument of eating small lizards and birds as a result of the prey's gutload is flawed-- putting in question the article's view (and the reason I posted it) that chameleons need pre-formed vitamin A. The problem lies not in that chameleons may be able to obtain pre-formed amounts of vitamin A from certain prey (lizards, small birds or other insects-- some insects are known to contain more vitamin A than others, such as mantids and silk moth larvae), but in the author's premise that they do so from the prey's gut contents, as Lynda mentioned.

Cheers,

Fabián

There are several things I don't agree with in the site cited by Fabian...
the list (as Syn said) includes broccoli and spinach...I'm sure won't hurt once in a while.

It also says...chameleons "eat small lizards and birds as part of their diet. These species, because of the vegetable matter in their stomach and intestines, provide much higher levels of vitamin A"...if the chameleons don't/can't convert beta carotene then whatever is in the stomach of the insect will not give the chameleon more preformed vitamin A...but the chameleon might get some if the insect can convert the matter in its stomach to preformed.

Interesting article...
http://books.google.ca/books?id=7fQ...X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=9#PPA260,M1

 

[Syn]

This is truly interesting.

So say you give your chameleon pre formed vit A one day, and do the D3 a few days later...
would the vit A be out of the chameleon's system by the time you give it the D3?

 

[merumontanus]

This is truly interesting.

So say you give your chameleon pre formed vit A one day, and do the D3 a few days later...
would the vit A be out of the chameleon's system by the time you give it the D3?

Well, I personally do not provide my animals with any synthetic, dietary, D3, but I know those who do, so that's why I mentioned the relationship between vitamin A and D3. Since D3 is responsible for certain metabolic processes, including calcium absorption, I avoid dusting my insects or providing any supplementation (including calcium) until at least a week (or two) after any vitamin A (preformed, retinyl palmitate) has been administered. That should allow the chameleon to metabolize the vitamin A and avoid neutralization.

Again, this is the way I manage nutrition in my chameleons, but you will find equally successful methods that differ greatly with mine, including no supplementation of preformed vitamin A. As others who follow the latter method have found, even though they may have not supplemented their chameleons with preformed vitamin A intentionally, they might have been feeding their animals insects with a higher content of vitamin A, and thus encountered no problems without additional supplementation.

Fabián

 

[sandrachameleon]

I am one of those who does not supplement with Pre-formed vitamin A, and yet has no issues.

Not long ago I started a thread to try to see if possibly there might be some trace amounts passed along indirectly by the feeders I use.

You may find the discussion interesting: https://www.chameleonforums.com/other-sources-vitamin-22452/

 

[merumontanus]

Sandra,

Thanks for your valuable input. Can you tell us what species you've kept under this supplementation regimen? I think it's important to establish this when having a discussion on metabolic processes, as they most likely vary among taxa. I have found montane, ovoviviparous, chameleons to be more susceptible to hyper- or hypovitaminosis, and I am sure the physiology of each species has a significant role in this.

Cheers,

Fabián

 

[sandrachameleon]

I have Panther chameleons.

I am sure the physiology of each species has a significant role

This seems a safe assumption.

 

[GooglezNvincent]

Ok so i have a question, were you guys saying it would be good or bad to feed your cham a mosquito/mosquito eater?

No one answered this, can they get vitamin A from eating the mosquitos which drank human blood? or eating the mosquito eater which ate the mosquito that drank human blood?

I may have misunderstood what you guys were talking about earlier.

 

[Eric Adrignola]

I know that a major issue is that vitamins and minerals can degrade each other if stored long term together - mixed up. Metabolically, they perform very different functions. Minerals are part of muscle functions, and bone make up. Vitamins often have the simple function of completing the final structure of an enzyme.

They are both present in the body, in some quantities, at all times. Having very low doeses in the body at the same time is probably not going to bother anything in there, as long as balance is maintained.

Animals in the wild are not restricted the way captive animals are - the content of their diets goes all over the place. Preformed D3 is a part of their natural diet, as is preformed vitamin A - how they get it is anyone's guess. It could be form an occational vertebrate liver, a bug that had eaten a vertebrate liver - who the heck knows. Somewhere, some times, they will eat it.

Same with D3 - animals that have D3 in their system and are eaten themselves are a way for them to get it. It's not JUST form the sun - I was told that grasshoppers, full of grass, have a high dietary D3 content. Of course, I was told - not "shown". Hehe. Anyone got data on that?

I have never had an issue with D3 or A being out of balance when I was giving them everything in low doses. Many friends of mine have been "cautious" with D3 and A, and prefer to avoid all artificial supplementations - just ot be careful. More often than not, they have had to treat a problem that was DUE to a vitamin imbalance. The treatment is usually the addition of a dietary supplement.

I'd prefer an all-natural diet for them, if possible. UVB helps bring it all that much closer. However, replication of ALL the natural foods they get and need is 100% impossible for most of us, if not all of us. A teeny eeny bit of artificial vitamins here and there will make up for any crucial gaps in their dietary requirements we may miss.

For humans, without a dietary issue, vitamins are worthless.
For reptiles, which have been thrust into captivity, and given an artificial diet, I believe they are usually necessary to fill the gaps.

I never take vitamins myself - I know how they work, and I know why they work, and I know why they're a waste for people - but I give them to my animals because I am confident that no matter how hard I try to replicate their natural diet, I will be wrong.

Playing it safe is giving them a tiny bit every oncei n a while.

That's my opinion, anyway!

Eric A

 

[Syn]

Fabian - I know that Montane species are more susceptible to vitamin overdoses, it that why you wait a few weeks between Vit A and D3 supplements?

Would it be possible the gap between supplements could harm non-montane species?

 

[Syn]

Also, I have a question, is Vitamin A related to shedding?

To help out with the shedding she was also given a shot of vitamin A dose 0.20.

https://www.chameleonforums.com/eye-irritation-23185/

 

[merumontanus]

Also, I have a question, is Vitamin A related to shedding?



https://www.chameleonforums.com/eye-irritation-23185/

Most certainly. The problems I have encountered with vitaminosis A came to light with symptoms of difficulty during shedding, as well as eye problems in a clutch of young melleri. These were quickly reversed with a dose of retynil palmitate.

Fabián

 

[Syn]

That explains why my veiled had shed with no problems after receiving Vit A from the vet.

 

[dodolah]

Most certainly. The problems I have encountered with vitaminosis A came to light with symptoms of difficulty during shedding, as well as eye problems in a clutch of young melleri. These were quickly reversed with a dose of retynil palmitate.

Fabián

Fabian, how do you dose them? and how much?
I recalled your earlier post about the necessity of going to the vet for a dosing.
Is that mean you ask your vet everytime you want to supplement your chameleon with vit A to do it for you?