Cham “eating” at lay bin mixture

[VeiledLily]

Yesterday, I noticed Lily had her head in the her laying bin soil mixture moving it around a little as if she was slightly borrowing her head and then was shooting her tongue at certain spots on the surface. I wasn’t sure if this was okay, so I distracted her by taking her out of her enclosure and didn’t notice anymore of her doing it that day.

Her mixture is 50% Organic Potting Mix/50% Jungle Mix I know a lot of people add 50% washed play sand but this still holds for tunnels to be made and was recommended as something you can mix together.

So my main concerns/questions are
Is this behavior normal? Am I using a mix that could be harmful to her? Should I be using a mix with washed play sand?

 

[Snuits]

Veileds are notorious dirt eaters. & the females have been known to eat the diet as well.
Im not sure what you can do to fix it. I'm just here to say it's pretty normal.

 

[Beman]

So ideally the sand is added to hold the tunnel... Just using all soil like you are you do run the risk of a tunnel collapsing. I do not know anyone here that has females that would advise using all soil mixtures in a lay bin. Make sure the potting soil does not have perlite in it. This can cause impaction issues if she ingests it.

First off you want to make sure your supplementing her correctly. If your not then she is trying to make up for a deficiency. So what are the supplements your using and what is the rotation you use them in?

 

[VeiledLily]

So ideally the sand is added to hold the tunnel... Just using all soil like you are you do run the risk of a tunnel collapsing. I do not know anyone here that has females that would advise using all soil mixtures in a lay bin. Make sure the potting soil does not have perlite in it. This can cause impaction issues if she ingests it.

First off you want to make sure your supplementing her correctly. If your not then she is trying to make up for a deficiency. So what are the supplements your using and what is the rotation you use them in?

Yes the mixture does allow tunnels to be made and it does stick very well together. I make sure the dirt is moist always as well.
Her supplement schedule changed now that she’s older. Sometimes Lily will eat two days in a row, sometimes she wants every other day and I make sure to dust crickets with calcium 3x weekly, Multi-Vitamin (w/o D3) once every 2 weeks. I quit the Vitamin with D3 that I gave once a month unless I should add that back? I was worried about overdosing.

 

[VeiledLily]

Veileds are notorious dirt eaters. & the females have been known to eat the diet as well.
Im not sure what you can do to fix it. I'm just here to say it's pretty normal.

LOL this is kind of comical, I always distracted her when I noticed her doing it because it just seems…odd

 

[Beman]

Yes the mixture does allow tunnels to be made and it does stick very well together. I make sure the dirt is moist always as well.
Her supplement schedule changed now that she’s older. Sometimes Lily will eat two days in a row, sometimes she wants every other day and I make sure to dust crickets with calcium 3x weekly, Multi-Vitamin (w/o D3) once every 2 weeks. I quit the Vitamin with D3 that I gave once a month unless I should add that back? I was worried about overdosing.

So she should be on a feeding schedule. by the time they are 9-10 months old they should be on a schedule of 3 days a week of 3-4 feeders depending on the size of feeder.

So something like this... and supplementing like this.

1st week
Monday: calcium without D3

Wednesday: calcium without D3

Friday: Calcium with D3

2nd week
Monday: calcium without D3

Wednesday: calcium without D3

Friday: Multivitamin without d3 (like Reptivite without D3)


3rd week
Monday: calcium without D3

Wednesday: calcium without D3

Friday: Calcium with D3

4th week
Monday: calcium without D3

Wednesday: calcium without D3

Friday: Multivitamin without d3 (like Reptivite without D3)


There are many supplements so the types you use matter and the rotation of how those are used change based on what they have in them. But they have to have all feeders lightly dusted each feeding with the correct supplement. They have to have calcium without D3, Calcium with D3 and a multivitamin... If the multi has D3 then the rotation changes.


So more then likely she is looking for something she is not getting and eating the soil because of it. So what are the exact supplements you are using? Take pictures please.

 

[kinyonga]

There are a couple things of concern with eating the substrate.

Impaction is the big one....and you can't really figure it out until it's too late. I have for years used a washed play sand that is produced by Kings and I have found it always passes through them when they eat it. It comes in a white bag with red, blue and yellow sand box toys pictured on the bag.

It's thought that they eat it because they are missing something in their diet...but so far there have been no studies on it or proof of it.

Another concern is that we need to provide her a place to lay eggs, so we can't really just take it out leaving her with nothing....and we can't cover the lay bin substrate like we do the pot soils.

Veiled females almost always only do this dirt eating when they're gravid in my experience....so...IMHO....this kinda leaves us with trying to use something that won't cause an impaction and with trying to figure out what she might be missing in her diet.

 

[VeiledLily]

So she should be on a feeding schedule. by the time they are 9-10 months old they should be on a schedule of 3 days a week of 3-4 feeders depending on the size of feeder.

So something like this... and supplementing like this.

1st week
Monday: calcium without D3

Wednesday: calcium without D3

Friday: Calcium with D3

2nd week
Monday: calcium without D3

Wednesday: calcium without D3

Friday: Multivitamin without d3 (like Reptivite without D3)


3rd week
Monday: calcium without D3

Wednesday: calcium without D3

Friday: Calcium with D3

4th week
Monday: calcium without D3

Wednesday: calcium without D3

Friday: Multivitamin without d3 (like Reptivite without D3)


There are many supplements so the types you use matter and the rotation of how those are used change based on what they have in them. But they have to have all feeders lightly dusted each feeding with the correct supplement. They have to have calcium without D3, Calcium with D3 and a multivitamin... If the multi has D3 then the rotation changes.


So more then likely she is looking for something she is not getting and eating the soil because of it. So what are the exact supplements you are using? Take pictures please.

Hey! I posted the type of supplements I’m using in my other thread about her schedule I believe you did comment on there too so it should be easy to find. I am giving her the supplements on a similar schedule that you listed just the days are different, I appreciate you! And so does Lily

 

[VeiledLily]

There are a couple things of concern with eating the substrate.

Impaction is the big one....and you can't really figure it out until it's too late. I have for years used a washed play sand that is produced by Kings and I have found it always passes through them when they eat it. It comes in a white bag with red, blue and yellow sand box toys pictured on the bag.

It's thought that they eat it because they are missing something in their diet...but so far there have been no studies on it or proof of it.

Another concern is that we need to provide her a place to lay eggs, so we can't really just take it out leaving her with nothing....and we can't cover the lay bin substrate like we do the pot soils.

Veiled females almost always only do this dirt eating when they're gravid in my experience....so...IMHO....this kinda leaves us with trying to use something that won't cause an impaction and with trying to figure out what she might be missing in her diet.

Also today I am redoing her lay bin and adding the sand in. Jungle Mix has sand in it also and other safe items in it and that’s what it mixed with organic potting mix but I’m taking all advice and wanted to let everyone know I appreciate the support so much

 

[VeiledLily]

Here is the photo of the supplements!

So she should be on a feeding schedule. by the time they are 9-10 months old they should be on a schedule of 3 days a week of 3-4 feeders depending on the size of feeder.

So something like this... and supplementing like this.

1st week
Monday: calcium without D3

Wednesday: calcium without D3

Friday: Calcium with D3

2nd week
Monday: calcium without D3

Wednesday: calcium without D3

Friday: Multivitamin without d3 (like Reptivite without D3)


3rd week
Monday: calcium without D3

Wednesday: calcium without D3

Friday: Calcium with D3

4th week
Monday: calcium without D3

Wednesday: calcium without D3

Friday: Multivitamin without d3 (like Reptivite without D3)


There are many supplements so the types you use matter and the rotation of how those are used change based on what they have in them. But they have to have all feeders lightly dusted each feeding with the correct supplement. They have to have calcium without D3, Calcium with D3 and a multivitamin... If the multi has D3 then the rotation changes.


So more then likely she is looking for something she is not getting and eating the soil because of it. So what are the exact supplements you are using? Take pictures please.

Here are the photos of the supplements!

 

[Beman]

Here is the photo of the supplements!

Here are the photos of the supplements!

It should be the calcium with D3 and the multivitamin 2 times a month each. YOu would rotate week to week between these two supplements at one feeding. Then the calcium without D3 would be used at any other feedings.
Granted your multivitamin does not have preformed vitamin A for eye health. and they have not proven that a cham can convert beta carotene to vitamin A.

 

[VeiledLily]

It should be the calcium with D3 and the multivitamin 2 times a month each. YOu would rotate week to week between these two supplements at one feeding. Then the calcium without D3 would be used at any other feedings.
Granted your multivitamin does not have preformed vitamin A for eye health. and they have not proven that a cham can convert beta carotene to vitamin A.

I’m going to write down the weekly schedule you gave me. Again thank you SO much!

 

[VeiledLily]

I’m redoing her lay bin currently, read below please

 

[VeiledLily]

This is what I bought and I just checked the soil ingredients and it does have perlite and I’m freaking out so bad now She still poops daily and everything how would I know if she’s impacted? I’m using the jungle mix and this sand if that’s approved.

 

[kinyonga]

What should I use to mix? I bought the washed play sand and I have organic potting soil and jungle mix. I was thinking the sand and jungle mix.

I just. Use washed playsand...and only the kind produced by Kings.

 

[VeiledLily]

So she should be on a feeding schedule. by the time they are 9-10 months old they should be on a schedule of 3 days a week of 3-4 feeders depending on the size of feeder.

So something like this... and supplementing like this.

1st week
Monday: calcium without D3

Wednesday: calcium without D3

Friday: Calcium with D3

2nd week
Monday: calcium without D3

Wednesday: calcium without D3

Friday: Multivitamin without d3 (like Reptivite without D3)


3rd week
Monday: calcium without D3

Wednesday: calcium without D3

Friday: Calcium with D3

4th week
Monday: calcium without D3

Wednesday: calcium without D3

Friday: Multivitamin without d3 (like Reptivite without D3)


There are many supplements so the types you use matter and the rotation of how those are used change based on what they have in them. But they have to have all feeders lightly dusted each feeding with the correct supplement. They have to have calcium without D3, Calcium with D3 and a multivitamin... If the multi has D3 then the rotation changes.


So more then likely she is looking for something she is not getting and eating the soil because of it. So what are the exact supplements you are using? Take pictures please.

I am currently writing down November’s weekly schedule and can’t thank you enough for this helpful information! Lily is 8 months almost and was curious how many crickets can I give her during the schedule? It says 3-4 but they’re medium size cricks. On Saturday and Sunday do they not get anything? was my other question, thank you!

 

[Beman]

I am currently writing down November’s weekly schedule and can’t thank you enough for this helpful information! Lily is 8 months almost and was curious how many crickets can I give her during the schedule? It says 3-4 but they’re medium size cricks. On Saturday and Sunday do they not get anything? was my other question, thank you!

3-4 is still ok if they are medium sized. If they are large then you want to give 3. And you would only feed Monday Wednesday and Friday. So those are the supplement days and rotation days for supplements. No feeding at all Tuesday, Thursday, Sat or Sun.

This and making sure basking is never hotter then 78-80max

 

[VeiledLily]

It seems like that’s so little food for a Cham who turns 8 months ina week? I’ve read mixed things and the medium would be 5-6 based off everything I’ve read. She ate pretty good up until she had her first clutch. I fed her very well after she laid like suggested and now we’re on the 3 days a week eating schedule, I just feel 4 medium crickets isn’t enough but is it? I’m also feeding her brother this exact diet (same age)

 

[kinyonga]

When you feed a veiled chameleon too much and keep her basking temperatures too warm she produces too many eggs and often develops follicular stasis...both of which will eventually kill her. She also will likely develop MBD, can prolapse, etc and die. 55 eggs is way more that the 25 or so that we aim for them produce.

One indication that they are heading for follicular stasis or eggbinding is dropping eggs before they lay the rest of the clutch.
If you're lucky (like you were), they will get through the egglaying once (and hopefully not have retained eggs)...but without changes the next clutch will be even bigger and very likely kill her.

If you search in here, you will find many cases of exact,y this happening...and you will also find many cases where people have controlled the diet and temperatures and their females are laying less eggs and less clutches or even no eggs and living long lives.