Chamaeleo the "Junk" Chameleons

[DanSB]

It seems to me that other than Chamaeleo calyptratus most of this genus are seldom regarded as desirable or good pets, fetching the lowest prices if someone bothers to import them, not worth the time of a commercial breeder and neglected to die then considered too difficult to keep...

This annoys me.

Many are beautiful animals possessing fantastic grace and personality not to mention stunning patterns.

Chamaeleo africanus, senegalensis, gracilis, dilepis... all fantastic animals that in my estimation are very under appreciated in the hobby.

None of them have super bright colors, none of them have horns or giant casques... is this the reason?

Or is it because they haven't reached critical mass and people would prefer to have an animal that is exclusive or expensive?

I speculate it is probably a combination of the two reasons. Both fair reasons in my estimation. Having owned and or seen all of the above first hand I would like to point out there are few if any pictures on the net that that do these beautiful animals justice. We are talking stunning greens, magnificent black, yellow, and hints of other colors in fantastic patterns that change based on the mood. In my estimation they can rival any other chameleon in complex beauty it is simply a slightly different artistic style.

Graceful, smooth moving, good tempers...

The second reason is that they are not exclusive, cool, or expensive enough. Well this just means you get a good deal on a great animal. Once you get one in good health and happy you will find that they are every bit as impressive to guests and fellow chameleon enthusiasts as any other "more desirable" chameleon species is.

I hope people will stop considering these wonderful animals as less desirable "junk" chameleons thrown as sacrifices to beginners and children to practice on before "stepping up" to a more desirable species. They are desirable and make a perfectly acceptable and challenging breeding goal for any chameleon enthusiast!

 

[LLLReptile]

There is also huge emphasis on captive bred, especially among chameleon keepers. I love all the species you have mentioned, work with them in our stores, baby them when we get them in - they become beautiful, well adjust chameleons that really do make good pets. But because they're not captive bred or commonly recommended, people avoid them.

This is the case for a lot of species and types of reptiles, not just the chameleons - I love African House Snakes, for example, and think they make excellent starter snakes, almost more so than cornsnakes, but getting someone to try one out as a pet is nearly impossible.

We're at an interesting point in reptile keeping, where new keepers seek the animals that have the most information out about them, which will naturally be the most common species. You can't blame them, but it does kind of take some of the fun out for those of us who love the less common species and no one else will try them with you.

I sympathize with you! Hopefully just being enthusiastic about the beautiful and less common species will help encourage some keepers to give them a chance.

-Jen

 

[DanSB]

There is also huge emphasis on captive bred, especially among chameleon keepers. I love all the species you have mentioned, work with them in our stores, baby them when we get them in - they become beautiful, well adjust chameleons that really do make good pets. But because they're not captive bred or commonly recommended, people avoid them.

This is the case for a lot of species and types of reptiles, not just the chameleons - I love African House Snakes, for example, and think they make excellent starter snakes, almost more so than cornsnakes, but getting someone to try one out as a pet is nearly impossible.

We're at an interesting point in reptile keeping, where new keepers seek the animals that have the most information out about them, which will naturally be the most common species. You can't blame them, but it does kind of take some of the fun out for those of us who love the less common species and no one else will try them with you.

I sympathize with you! Hopefully just being enthusiastic about the beautiful and less common species will help encourage some keepers to give them a chance.

-Jen

Thank you for the perspective Jen, it confirms many of my suspicions!

This could very well be a bigger part than my thoughts. No matter what a chameleon's purchase price is there is a huge investment in time, energy, and equipment and I suppose people want to know they are getting a pet they can keep alive!

My hope is that more people will contribute and share their less popular chameleons here or anywhere reptile stories are swapped. The number of "It died in a week" reports are much higher than they should be I suppose.

I am just hoping I can get some more people on board to try out and share success with these species!

 

[SaintJimmy]

I think newer owners like me all pretty much start out the same way.

You look into chams, and pretty much the most common one is a veiled, so you think "Wow, cool." So you get one, learn about it, and then learn about the other common types like furcifer and jacksonii, but you never really take the time to look at the other smaller species.

I think it's more of a thing where if you're new, you simply don't know the other ones exist. There are some cool species.

More experienced people probably back away from the idea of buying rare, wild caught because they are "generally more aggressive" and it would be "cruel to take them from their homes".

I would be concerned only if my cham had to be smuggled. Other than that, I don't get the whole "don't get the wild ones" argument.

But honestly, not too many people have experience with the much rarer species because almost everyone is eventually an expert on panthers, veileds, carpets, and jacksons, and no one has advice to give on the rarer ones, so no one wants to risk it.

A possibility, I guess.

 

[DanSB]

I think newer owners like me all pretty much start out the same way.

You look into chams, and pretty much the most common one is a veiled, so you think "Wow, cool." So you get one, learn about it, and then learn about the other common types like furcifer and jacksonii, but you never really take the time to look at the other smaller species.

I think it's more of a thing where if you're new, you simply don't know the other ones exist. There are some cool species.

More experienced people probably back away from the idea of buying rare, wild caught because they are "generally more aggressive" and it would be "cruel to take them from their homes".

I would be concerned only if my cham had to be smuggled. Other than that, I don't get the whole "don't get the wild ones" argument.

But honestly, not too many people have experience with the much rarer species because almost everyone is eventually an expert on panthers, veileds, carpets, and jacksons, and no one has advice to give on the rarer ones, so no one wants to risk it.

A possibility, I guess.

There are definite advantages to captive bred. I know of some captive hatched africanus that have been available for a long time and only current renovation is keeping me from buying them all! (Chameleons and plaster dust don't mix well)

I believe ultimately you are right about the perception. Too bad it isn't true for the species I listed. There is a lot of good information and many experienced keepers on this forum.

I am beginning to see one of the big issues is the captive bred issue. Many of these species are just not bred in captivity very often as there is little financial incentive!

 

[SaintJimmy]

There are definite advantages to captive bred. I know of some captive hatched africanus that have been available for a long time and only current renovation is keeping me from buying them all! (Chameleons and plaster dust don't mix well)

I believe ultimately you are right about the perception. Too bad it isn't true for the species I listed. There is a lot of good information and many experienced keepers on this forum.

I am beginning to see one of the big issues is the captive bred issue. Many of these species are just not bred in captivity very often as there is little financial incentive!

Yeah, the rare ones are usually expensive because of 1) must be captured I'm guessing 2) Fewer of them.

 

[Trace]

This is a very transient hobby and not everyone sticks with the hobby long term to discover the joys of working with the ‘junk’ species. In can count on both hands the number of hardcore chameleon keepers here who have been keeping for longer than 10 years. Some species have a certain caché in the hobby (Parsons, certain locales of Panthers) that as far as I’m concerned is more than a little unjustified and people want these animals as some sort of badge of honour.

I do think some of these Chamaeleo species are easy to work with but I’m guilty of not recommending them in all situations. If I’m talking to someone absolutely new to herps I tell them to get a CB Panther or Veiled. Actually I’ll tell them to get a Leopard or Crestie or Corn over a chameleon. If I meet someone with a true interest in chameleons and wants something different than I might recommend the Chamaeleo depending on what they like. (Horns, fins, size, location, etc.) It’s pretty rare these days that I meet someone who I think will stick with the hobby for longer than a few years and be dedicated to a few species. Most have the 'Chams are like Pringles, can't have just one' mentality.

There are people on here who have had success with the odd species and will speak, offer advice and lend support when it comes up. I know I do. Otherwise successes with the odd things tend to get lost because people don’t know about them. Baby Veiled photo threads will always have more replies than a baby Senegal thread.

I’ve always thought that working concurrently with a small group of Senegals, Gracefuls and Flaps would be a neat project just to compare and contrast their individual behaviours, personalities and breeding seasons. Call me a nerd; I’ve come to grips with that.

 

[deadhd5]

Great discussion on this thread...

My perspective, as a fairly new enthusiast of this hobby (10 months) is that there are more great chameleon species than enthusiasts willing to spend the time and money to keep them. The result is a lot of fantastic species with surprisingly little demand. It is no coincidence that the popular chams have bright colors, horns, fins, etc. It is as predictable and rational as it is unfortunate.

Being new but enthusiastic, I may be the target demo for breeders. My cham room has just enough room for 5 chameleons. I currently have three, a Nosy Be, Ambilobe, and Jackson because they appealed to me visually. I have room for two more, and I am currently choosing the final pair with much care. I saw CB africans and senegals which I was tempted to buy, both because they are great species and because they were not finding homes elsewhere despite being really cool. In the end though, I can't help but be drawn back to the trioceros genus when filling my remaining space.

 

[DanSB]

This is a very transient hobby and not everyone sticks with the hobby long term to discover the joys of working with the ‘junk’ species. In can count on both hands the number of hardcore chameleon keepers here who have been keeping for longer than 10 years. Some species have a certain caché in the hobby (Parsons, certain locales of Panthers) that as far as I’m concerned is more than a little unjustified and people want these animals as some sort of badge of honour.

I do think some of these Chamaeleo species are easy to work with but I’m guilty of not recommending them in all situations. If I’m talking to someone absolutely new to herps I tell them to get a CB Panther or Veiled. Actually I’ll tell them to get a Leopard or Crestie or Corn over a chameleon. If I meet someone with a true interest in chameleons and wants something different than I might recommend the Chamaeleo depending on what they like. (Horns, fins, size, location, etc.) It’s pretty rare these days that I meet someone who I think will stick with the hobby for longer than a few years and be dedicated to a few species. Most have the 'Chams are like Pringles, can't have just one' mentality.

There are people on here who have had success with the odd species and will speak, offer advice and lend support when it comes up. I know I do. Otherwise successes with the odd things tend to get lost because people don’t know about them. Baby Veiled photo threads will always have more replies than a baby Senegal thread.

I’ve always thought that working concurrently with a small group of Senegals, Gracefuls and Flaps would be a neat project just to compare and contrast their individual behaviours, personalities and breeding seasons. Call me a nerd; I’ve come to grips with that.

There is definitely a knowledge gap in caring for these species that makes them less desirable for new keepers. As an example I believe that (not 100% sure but am still looking for evidence) a Senegal, a Graceful, and Flapneck all have different care and nutrition requirements especially regarding RH, hydration, and temperatures for an ideal environment. But there is so much confusion when looking for natural habitats because they look very similar and are mistaken by people who don't know how to tell them apart. After extensive research and reading I can only tell them apart because you and Chris told me what to look for!

I hope one day the resource page on this site will help significantly if it is given a bit more species specific detail.

The thing is none of these species (except africanus) is actually rare. I can buy any of them right now but they are mostly wild caught, and possibly captive hatched. I really think if any of them would rally catch on if captive bred specimens were readily available. This would allow the more experienced keepers to recommend them with more confidence. All of us want more Chameleon keepers in the hobby and anyone with sense knows that a person is more likely to try and quit if they can't successfully keep their first chameleon.

The trick will be to try to get more experienced keepers to make a little space in their cham room for a breeding project.

My plan once the cham room is finished is to breed Ch. africanus and Ch. senegalensis. If I get more room I would love to add some flap necks and gracefuls; it would be completely awesome to be able to compare conditions and really make a science out of it. I just need a warehouse and a Zoo to house my menagarie (but I've always been an animal nerd and I can't get out of it!)...

 

[laurie]

I went the way of most others. mainly panthers and veileds. A few others but nothing that stuck. Finally I adopted a female quad who had been smuggles into the country and was pretty beat up. She crawled out of the box from ChamEO, the rescue place, and into my heart. i currently have 3 quads, my pair just mated yesterday. I have tried to educate and interest other in quads, some have wanted to at least try them, for others they just don't excite them. Now even if someone wants a quad there are none to be had.

I hope to see more people keeping the non-mainstream chams. But I too an guilty of sending new people to the easy chams that everyone will help with. I directed one girl to a jackson. i have put in a lot of time on the forum and on the phone but she is doing great. i have a lot of free time but the is a limit to how many people you can devote a lot of time to at once. I wish more people would mentor some of the new people.

Just my long winded thoughts.

 

[DanSB]

Great discussion on this thread...

My perspective, as a fairly new enthusiast of this hobby (10 months) is that there are more great chameleon species than enthusiasts willing to spend the time and money to keep them. The result is a lot of fantastic species with surprisingly little demand. It is no coincidence that the popular chams have bright colors, horns, fins, etc. It is as predictable and rational as it is unfortunate.

Being new but enthusiastic, I may be the target demo for breeders. My cham room has just enough room for 5 chameleons. I currently have three, a Nosy Be, Ambilobe, and Jackson because they appealed to me visually. I have room for two more, and I am currently choosing the final pair with much care. I saw CB africans and senegals which I was tempted to buy, both because they are great species and because they were not finding homes elsewhere despite being really cool. In the end though, I can't help but be drawn back to the trioceros genus when filling my remaining space.

I think it depends on what you're looking for of course. CB senegals would be great if you are looking for a chameleon that is often visible and is friendly, a breeding pair of africanus would just be amazing just in a more subtle way. You already have the bright colors and the horns a senegal or africanus would round out your collection!

I went the way of most others. mainly panthers and veileds. A few others but nothing that stuck. Finally I adopted a female quad who had been smuggles into the country and was pretty beat up. She crawled out of the box from ChamEO, the rescue place, and into my heart. i currently have 3 quads, my pair just mated yesterday. I have tried to educate and interest other in quads, some have wanted to at least try them, for others they just don't excite them. Now even if someone wants a quad there are none to be had.

I hope to see more people keeping the non-mainstream chams. But I too an guilty of sending new people to the easy chams that everyone will help with. I directed one girl to a jackson. i have put in a lot of time on the forum and on the phone but she is doing great. i have a lot of free time but the is a limit to how many people you can devote a lot of time to at once. I wish more people would mentor some of the new people.

Just my long winded thoughts.

Laurie, people can only recommend what they know. I think all 4 of the Chamaeleo species I mention are easier to care for than a Jackson's, but there is a lot more info on Jackson'e making it easier to get the perfect set up and help when something goes wrong.

One of the problems we even see here is the lack of good data. The care sheet in the new resources area is a combined one for 3 species. The info on their should keep them alive but to really thrive the Senegal at least should be separated to it's own sheet they need more water than gracefuls and probably flapnecks (not 100% on the later). I don't blame anyone because this is pretty much what is commonly accepted but when you start talking to people who have successfully bred these species it turns out it is only partially right...

I wish I had more time I would gather all the research and do one for each species

 

[italian chameleon]

I agree, the problems are lack of detailed data on proper care and lack of CB stock!for example I would love to have CB Chamaeleo chamaeleon but nobody is interested in that species.It's a shame cause they are just amazing,I saw them in the wild in Spain and I fell in love! my dream is to set up a massive outdoor breeding facility back home in Italy. who knows.... maybe one day...

now for example how's this

or this less beautiful/interesting than any other cham???

(not my pics)

PS: there seem to be a few CB Ch. zeylanicus for sale in Europe...

 

[DanSB]

Chamaeleo chameleon is a fantastically beautiful chameleon. I hear you can't get them in the US at all right now and have not seen one for sale in many years. Chamaeleo africanus is very similar in appearance and temperament from what I understand which is one of the main ones I want to work with.

 

[ChameleonMom]

I am just hoping I can get some more people on board to try out and share success with these species!

Sorry, I am jumping from page 1 to the end as I had to comment on this: I love ALL chameleons, no matter what species and would LOVE to own a chameleon that isn't a popular choice, one that not everybody owned! The only problem is finding one that I can acquire - THAT, in my opinion is the problem. Pet stores are out of the question and breeders don't breed what won't be sold.

Now Dan, I would love a Graceful.....you know where I can get one in Canada? Or should I wait for your ad in the classifieds?

 

[little leaf]

my first chameleon ever was a Senagal , and my second a Graceful I now have a Jackson, but I reallllly liked my Graceful, with her tiny little spots and specks - and stripes - but I love any and all chammys - they are ALL # 1 in my book

 

[DanSB]

Sorry, I am jumping from page 1 to the end as I had to comment on this: I love ALL chameleons, no matter what species and would LOVE to own a chameleon that isn't a popular choice, one that not everybody owned! The only problem is finding one that I can acquire - THAT, in my opinion is the problem. Pet stores are out of the question and breeders don't breed what won't be sold.

Now Dan, I would love a Graceful.....you know where I can get one in Canada? Or should I wait for your ad in the classifieds?

If I were you I would PM Trace or Hoj and ask if they know where to find a Graceful in Canada. Alternately Chameleon Nation might be able to import one for you and if it part of a larger import it could likely be done inexpensively.

I will be breeding Senegals and hopefully africanus by this time next year but the Gracefuls will be a little longer...

 

[DanSB]

my first chameleon ever was a Senagal , and my second a Graceful I now have a Jackson, but I reallllly liked my Graceful, with her tiny little spots and specks - and stripes - but I love any and all chammys - they are ALL # 1 in my book

The entire family is awesome! I agree.

When I would bring my Senegal outside I saw colors and subtle shades I couldn't believe nature would have that kind of subtly gorgeous pallet in her repertoire.

Just remember to tell your friends!

I get nervous imports will stop one day and all of these gems will be gone because nobody thought to breed in captivity.

 

[Chameleonic]

I am not thinking about this issue much but i can guess that is partly because the Veiled has such reputation for being "hardy" and it is the senegals and such which have been dying far more easily for a begginer to try. And then maybe when someone wants to try a newkind they leave for a new Genus and sort of forget some of the others.

Of course the reason for it to be thought "junk" is simple supply and demand.

 

[NavyCham]

I currently have a senegal and he is my first cham. So far he seems like a great first chameleon. they are actually one of the hardiest species and even more social then the veileds, jacksons and panthers. i didnt have to do any kind of taming cuz they prefer interaction. they love human contact and even get along well with more of their own species. ive spoken to a few senegal owners and theyve all said the same thing, that their cham was drawn to human contact. to me that seems like the perfect starter, a cham thats easy to care for and easy to handle. i know they may not have the bright colors, horns or veils but they carry their own appeal. Nemos color range is limited but i enjoy seing him turn hilighter yellow when he sun bathes and bright green when he sleeps. in fact the senegals have a unique feature in that they have spots instead of bars. when he is happy he gets little pokadots all over his body. im not sure if any other cham species has them but its the only one i know of. The only reason i can think of to not recommed them is because most of them are wild caught. Once ive had this guy for a while i think i might get a female and try to breed so that i can supply some true captive bred senegals

 

[Jamall]

My vield has polka dots