Chameleon crossing the border?

[Ryandog99]

I live in BC and might want to go down to Seattle to pick up a panther cham. I'm wondering if any of you know if it's legal to bring a chameleon across the border back into Canada, or even if I would simply need a form.
Thanks,
Alex

 

[laurie]

You would need all the paper work to import the cham. If you know of any importers they could do it for you, but you are most likely looking at big $$$

 

[Trace]

With the proper forms it is possible to import a Panther Chameleon from the US. Unfortunately it’s a time consuming and costly process as Furcifer pardalis is considered a CITES II species. I’ve written a blog about it. It’s been a while since I’ve updated it so the prices may have changed since 2013 but the process should be the same:

https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/trace/783-import-export-cites-animals-canada.html

A Canadian company referenced in my blog does imports for Canadians and they have a good resource about it as well:

http://reptileexpress.com/reptile-exports-and-imports/

Here is a thread that might be of interest regarding importing and smuggling:

https://www.chameleonforums.com/question-legality-106870/

Support Canadian breeders. There are many people that are now working with interesting species and panther localities. They are sometimes a little harder to find but a modicum of research will put you in touch with them.

There are a couple of reptile expos close to you the next few weeks. I bet someone will have chameleons at one of them:

http://bcreptileclub.ca/events/

http://victoriareptileexpo.com/

 

[Ryandog99]

That sucks I wish there were more options in Canada. On a government of Canada website, under "Importing or Travelling with pet Amphibians and Reptiles", it says

"Amphibians and reptiles (excluding turtles and tortoises) are not regulated under the Health of Animals Regulations (other than Part XII that regulates the transport of all animals). As a result, there is no Canadian Food Inspection Agency requirement to obtain an import permit, nor a health certificate. Under normal circumstances, there are no border inspections. Imports are permitted from any country, for any use, to any destination in Canada."

What does this mean?

 

[Carlton]

That sucks I wish there were more options in Canada. On a government of Canada website, under "Importing or Travelling with pet Amphibians and Reptiles", it says

"Amphibians and reptiles (excluding turtles and tortoises) are not regulated under the Health of Animals Regulations (other than Part XII that regulates the transport of all animals). As a result, there is no Canadian Food Inspection Agency requirement to obtain an import permit, nor a health certificate. Under normal circumstances, there are no border inspections. Imports are permitted from any country, for any use, to any destination in Canada."

What does this mean?

I think it means CA does not require a permit to bring the cham IN, but the US still requires a permit for you to take the cham OUT, either submitted by you or provided by the breeder you get the cham from. I'm sure Trace knows better than I do however.

 

[Ryandog99]

Well, seeing as on the way back into Canada, you're talking to Canadian border guards, they shouldn't have a problem as long as you're following Canadian law, right?

 

[Carlton]

Well, seeing as on the way back into Canada, you're talking to Canadian border guards, they shouldn't have a problem as long as you're following Canadian law, right?

But, they may ask you for your EXPORT permit from the US. Taking exotics across borders has two parts...the receiving country's permission to enter (that CA apparently doesn't require) and the origin country's permission to exit. This is all part of tracking the movements of species that CITES member countries have agreed to manage. There's a chance that the particular border agents don't ask for the paperwork, but if they do and you don't have it you'll probably lose your cham...and who knows where it will end up.

 

[Trace]

Carlton is correct; you won’t need an import permit or health inspection at the border. If you are bringing in a lot of chameleons at once you may need a license for that as it might be deemed for commercial use. Aside from turtles and tortoises that have special rules about importing, the Canadian side really doesn’t have any issue with what you bring in. Of course there are provincial and local by-laws (no hots, no crocs, no large snakes etc.) that you might have to heed but chameleons generally don’t fall into banned species on a local level. Generally.

You will declare said chameleon to the border guards and they will be looking for the exit papers from the US side and those include CITES, the 3-177 and the inspection documents from the USF&W officials. They will verify that what you have is what is listed on the paperwork.

If you simply hide the chameleon under your seat and you are caught, the animals will be confiscated and you will have a nifty smuggling charge attached to your name. Is it worth it?

There is no way around these rules. There are tons of people breeding chameleons in Canada now, tons more than when I started out 20+ years ago, please buy from them.

 

[Ryandog99]

This would be my first chameleon, so I would be looking at bringing the enclosure, lights, etc. back with me, so trying to smuggle it isn't even possible. Plus that would be extremely selfish of me to attempt to smuggle a chameleon in. Who knows what would happen to it if it got confiscated? It's just that Panther Chameleons at all are harder to come across in Canada, and I'm trying to find one off of craigslist so it's a bit cheaper than breeder prices (which can be extremely pricey). I guess i'll just wait, and see if one pops up in my area. I will definitely check out that reptile show in Abbotsford.

 

[laurie]

You might give ehchameleons a try. I know they ship all over Canada.

 

[Ryandog99]

Have you bought from them? I'm wondering how much it costs for a cham from there plus shipping...

 

[Trace]

My apologies, I’m not trying to get down on you or anything like that. These are extreme examples but remember the snake that killed those two boys in New Brunswick and that Ikea monkey. The knee-jerk reaction by politicians is to ban exotic animals altogether so by flaunting the law by smuggling in a few animals; it just creates more impetus to make more restrictive laws.

Shows are a great place to pick up supplies real cheap. You can also buy them stateside if you prefer although with our dollar right now it’s probably not worth it.

You do find good, healthy animals on CraigsList et.al. but many are sad and sick. If you think there might be problems with the animal, don’t buy it or ask one of us on here our opinion. As a first time owner it’s sometimes worth paying a bit more from a breeder but you know you will get a good animal and great after-care from them. You can also get a well started baby and watch it grow. Getting and caring for a sick animal greatly diminishes the pleasure you get from the hobby and in the long run isn’t fair to the animal if you have lost interest.

It looks like there is at least one chameleon breeder attending the show next week. I don’t know what they will have but it’s worth a try even if it's just to make the contact for a future purchase. There are also several good shows in Alberta if you fancy a longer drive.

 

[jajeanpierre]

That sucks I wish there were more options in Canada. On a government of Canada website, under "Importing or Travelling with pet Amphibians and Reptiles", it says

"Amphibians and reptiles (excluding turtles and tortoises) are not regulated under the Health of Animals Regulations (other than Part XII that regulates the transport of all animals). As a result, there is no Canadian Food Inspection Agency requirement to obtain an import permit, nor a health certificate. Under normal circumstances, there are no border inspections. Imports are permitted from any country, for any use, to any destination in Canada."

What does this mean?

That quote is from Canada Food Inspection. That is only one Canadian government agency that would be involved in the cross-border trade of chameleons.

The other agency is CITES Management, under the auspices of Environment Canada.

In order to bring a CITES II animal into Canada, you need a CITES Export permit from the country of origin, in this case the US. US Fish and Wildlife would issue an export permit for a fee. I believe US Fish and Wildlife would also need to inspect the shipment at export to stamp and cancel the CITES Export Permit which costs something like $270. US Fish and Wildlife does nothing for free, unlike CITES Management in Canada. You would need a Port Exemption Permit from US Fish and Wildlife, because there are only about five designated ports in the US and a land border crossing isn't one of them.

If the chameleon is CITES II, which I think Panthers are, I believe you do not need an import permit issued by Canada. CITES I animals and products gets crazy. I've brought several CITES II animals multiple times into Canada. I've also moved CITES I and II into the US.

Don't trust the border guards/inspectors. Most haven't a clue and might give you wrong advice. Also, be aware that there is a no-man's land between the borders. If you don't have the right paperwork for Canada and you've left the US, you can't go back into the US because you would need a CITES permit, etc., to import the animal back into the US. A bit of a Catch-22 scenario.

Your fees for the paperwork will cost you more than the animal.

Smuggling is not without risk. It is a crime. You might be barred from the US. You might be fined. You will definitely lose the animal. My first foray into dealing with US Fish and Wildlife was when I sent blood and a couple of feathers to be tested in the US. I followed the guidelines the lab sent, including filling out the Department of Agriculture forms. At the time, I did not know about CITES. The lab ended up with a $4000 fine for allowing me to send them a vial of blood and a few feathers of a living bird in Saudi Arabia. US Fish and Wildlife is very sticky about their rules.

 

[APailthorp]

This guy?
http://seattle.craigslist.org/sno/for/4967917449.html
Crossed my mind too, but I have other plans.

Good looking cham and a good deal, I hope he finds a good home.