Chameleon Genetics-- How much does each parent contribute?

[drcrossfire]

I was having an interesting discussion through PMs about the contribution of genetics from each parent to eggs... and I was wondering if anyone had any information regarding the matter?

I was under the impression that with most species, each parent supplies one chromosome for each pair of chromosomes with certain traits from one side or the other --(with chameleons having 22-24 chromosome pairs?)

Does anyone know-- what the contributing genetics are from each parent to egg? Does the female account for a greater %?

 

[kwilkens14]

I've heard the female contributes more traits that end up being dominant. When I was initially looking through sires more than one person, I can't remember who, said that most males from a clutch will end up resembling the dam's sire. Idk how valid this is, but it is what I've gathered.

 

[Texas Ranger]

We have been working on morph reptiles for sometime now. And it seems to me that most of the genetic code comes from the moms side other wise if it was a simple 50/50 split of there genes then line breeding in reptiles would not work .... The babies would never come out right or deformed or still born. But that is not the case it is way more random then the 50/50 ..... Because you can breed back let's say leopered geckos ... Like you take the baby from a pairing of DB leos and they are female you can take and breed back to dad with no ill outcome but if you were to have a male from that pairing and breed him back to mom 9 times out of 10 the babies will never hatch or make anything. And if they do they are deformed because the genetic code is to close to the same..... But also in the moms genetics I think her mom and dad and the grandparents and so on have a genetic tie to the off spring too.. and on the dads side very little is passed JMO

 

[Olimpia]

Well, the genetic info HAS to be 50-50%, otherwise all offspring would not be viable. However, if the genes of color are sex-linked (in that they "travel" on the female's genetic contribution) then this would explain what people are seeing.

 

[Texas Ranger]

Well, the genetic info HAS to be 50-50%, otherwise all offspring would not be viable. However, if the genes of color are sex-linked (in that they "travel" on the female's genetic contribution) then this would explain what people are seeing.

I just don't see a 50/50% in most reptiles being breed. I can take a Mack raptor female that is its own albino gene and a DB male a different albino gene and let's even throw in a HET.on the males side of a typhoon that is a total different albino gene. And breed them together...... All I am going to get is a Mack raptor like mom and maybe a little lighter shade of color so to dads side ... But with a very small HET for DB and typhoon. Now i take that baby and breed it with a our DB and the other with a pure typhoon it is going to take at lest 4 breeding on the low side to show any of the treats on the frist dads side and more then likly will take close to 6 to 8 out crossing to do so. And all babies during all this breeding will look just like mom a Mack raptor .... Until after so much generation the dads treat finally shows. You have all the relatives from the females side too that keep the color or gene going JMO. I am thinking it works more on a 20% dad and 80% mom way on the genetics and maybe even less on the dads side.

 

[Olimpia]

I'm not invalidating what you're seeing, because I've never bred anything past the F1, but I've taken several courses in genetics and there isn't an animal that reproduces sexually that doesn't get an equal contribution from both parents.

Maybe there's something in the color determination of these lizards that is sex-linked to the female's genetic half? Like in Ligers, how they get huge because they don't have the size gene that is sex-linked to male tigers or to female lions, and ligers are made by the opposite mix. Also, just like some diseases are carried only by females but expressed in male offspring. So, that may be one theory. Or for some reason the female is providing the dominant genes that we don't know about yet.

I'll search through genetic journals and see if I can find anything about this topic specifically. But the offspring definitely get a 50-50% mix from both parents - now, what makes the offspring seem like they're inheriting a lot more strongly from their mothers, I don't know. I'll see if I can find anything!

 

[Texas Ranger]

I'm not invalidating what you're seeing, because I've never bred anything past the F1, but I've taken several courses in genetics and there isn't an animal that reproduces sexually that doesn't get an equal contribution from both parents.

Maybe there's something in the color determination of these lizards that is sex-linked to the female's genetic half? Like in Ligers, how they get huge because they don't have the size gene that is sex-linked to male tigers or to female lions, and ligers are made by the opposite mix. Also, just like some diseases are carried only by females but expressed in male offspring. So, that may be one theory. Or for some reason the female is providing the dominant genes that we don't know about yet.

I'll search through genetic journals and see if I can find anything about this topic specifically. But the offspring definitely get a 50-50% mix from both parents - now, what makes the offspring seem like they're inheriting a lot more strongly from their mothers, I don't know. I'll see if I can find anything!

Yes but you are forgetting about grandparents and great grandparents and so on they all play a roll in the offspring and the genetics passed to the off spring... Like my sister she looks just like my 3rd great grandmother on my moms side but the rest of us have closer treats to our mom with slight hints of treats from our dad like blond hair but our sister has black hair.... Anyways what I am getting at is it is not just mom and dad of a pairing and that is were a lower % should be allowed and in reptiles it seems to faver the mother.

 

[ScreamingIncognito]

genetics

i have a question.. is there Dominant and ressesive genes in lizards like in humans? and if what your saying is true... wouldnt all the fuss about getting a reptile from a specific sire be for nothing.. shouldnt all the hype be on what Female is used to breed and what sire she came from? just asking because i got a Raiden Faly and i see no white barring on my guy which is more or less what i wanted. but also my guy is too chill and i have never seen him fire up yet and also he is not quite full grown

 

[ecoreef]

The reason some things are sex linked is because of the XX XY differance between females and males. Like Olympia pointed out some things are more easily passed from mother to son. A good example of this is red green color blindness in humans. Red green color blindness is only carried and expressed by the X chromosome in the 23rd pair. In order for males to express colorblindness all they need is ONE X chromosome(the one given to them by their mother) to be carrying the gene. Females on the other hand need to have TWO X chromosomes(one from mother and one from father) that have the gene in order for the colorblindness to be expressed. So basically males can only inherit colorblindness from their mom where as females have to have both parents carry the gene and obtain one gene carrying chromosome from each parent which is much less likey.

We can kinda apply this style of thinking to chameleon genetics given their sex is not dependent on their incubation temperature like some reptiles and almost all vertebrates use the XX XY chromosome combo to determine sex.

If the color gene for males is linked to the females X chromosome in a clutch we would see 50% of the males look one way and the other 50% look the other way(depending on which one of two X chromosomes they got from mom).

Now I've seen clutches with MANY different color variants between the male offspring so from seeing this it would be my educated guess that color in males is NOT only passed from mother to son. More than likely there are a few different genes that determine color in males. To say something like "it's always gonna be 80% perecent from the female and 20% from the male" really doesent make sense from a genetic stand point.

Just my 2 cents,
-Alex

 

[Texas Ranger]

i have a question.. is there Dominant and ressesive genes in lizards like in humans? and if what your saying is true... wouldnt all the fuss about getting a reptile from a specific sire be for nothing.. shouldnt all the hype be on what Female is used to breed and what sire she came from? just asking because i got a Raiden Faly and i see no white barring on my guy which is more or less what i wanted. but also my guy is too chill and i have never seen him fire up yet and also he is not quite full grown

I think thay the mother contributes more then the father does.

The reason some things are sex linked is because of the XX XY differance between females and males. Like Olympia pointed out some things are more easily passed from mother to son. A good example of this is red green color blindness in humans. Red green color blindness is only carried and expressed by the X chromosome in the 23rd pair. In order for males to express colorblindness all they need is ONE X chromosome(the one given to them by their mother) to be carrying the gene. Females on the other hand need to have TWO X chromosomes(one from mother and one from father) that have the gene in order for the colorblindness to be expressed. So basically males can only inherit colorblindness from their mom where as females have to have both parents carry the gene and obtain one gene carrying chromosome from each parent which is much less likey.

We can kinda apply this style of thinking to chameleon genetics given their sex is not dependent on their incubation temperature like some reptiles and almost all vertebrates use the XX XY chromosome combo to determine sex.

If the color gene for males is linked to the females X chromosome in a clutch we would see 50% of the males look one way and the other 50% look the other way(depending on which one of two X chromosomes they got from mom).

Now I've seen clutches with MANY different color variants between the male offspring so from seeing this it would be my educated guess that color in males is NOT only passed from mother to son. More than likely there are a few different genes that determine color in males. To say something like "it's always gonna be 80% perecent from the female and 20% from the male" really doesent make sense from a genetic stand point.

Just my 2 cents,
-Alex

Very good point but I never said it was going to be 80/20 and that it is random and I think way more random then 50/50.... I was just saying that it always seems to favor the mothers side of the genetic pool on color...

 

[DavidBuchan]

But the offspring definitely get a 50-50% mix from both parents

It's a fact, genetic material is evenly mixed. 50% from each parent.
Gene interactions are different and can be very complicated though, as you obviously know

 

[DavidBuchan]

i have a question.. is there Dominant and ressesive genes in lizards like in humans?

Yes there are, some will be passed down the female side, some down the male. Depending on all sorts of complicated things brothers and sisters still end up looking a little different though. Chromosomes break up and recombine all the time, there is a lot of shuffling a very big deck when it comes to sexual reproduction.
Perhaps your guy does take after his maternal grandfather, but either way I bet he looks different to some of his brothers so it's impossible to guarantee what colours and patterns a Cham will have. It's a good job we love them all anyway

 

[ecoreef]

Great discussion guys.

It's my personal theory that the are MANY genes that are probably working mostly on co-dominant allele relationships to determine male coloration. In my opinion it explains why we so SO MUCH variation within a single species and even a single clutch.

Us panther chameleon keepers don't have it as easy as most other reptile keepers that have species that aren't sexually dimorphic color wise like most snakes and such. Since our females only carry genes and don't express them it's really just a educated guessing game when it comes to determining clutch color. Maybe in 50 years we'll be able to isolate the color genes in panther chameleons and have the ability to get our females DNA tested for color(this will never happen in my lifetime but I can dream)!