Chameleon genetics
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Psychobunny
Avid Member
It's not a sure thing, but the chances are very good that male panthers will inherit the same pattern and colors. Veiled chams also.
All of my guys turned out to look very much like Dad
If the female is over-bred, you start running into problems with the babies having genetic defects, or so I have been told, I don't breed them, and I am not a biologist
All of my guys turned out to look very much like Dad
If the female is over-bred, you start running into problems with the babies having genetic defects, or so I have been told, I don't breed them, and I am not a biologist
Olimpia
Biologist & Ecologist
It's not a question that gets a simple answer! A lot plays into it. Yes, definitely the female contributes 50% of the genetics, so her side of the family is just as important.
I wrote a bit about it here, with examples from my own chameleons: Like Father Like Son. You can see that there is a lot of variability, so buying the offspring of one male over another is NO guarantee that you'll get what you want.
But there are a few things that make it more of a certainty. The big one is looking through the family history of a panther or veiled lineage and seeing if the breeder is shooting for a consistent, specific look. If you go to a breeder that has 5-6 generations of pure blue Nosy Be panthers with zero red speckling, then your chances are dramatically higher that you'll get exactly that. Because there is genetic consistency in the background.
However, if you want to buy a pure red and blue Ambilobe, for example, but the lineage shows lots of Ambilobes all over the place (green, yellow, orange, etc.) then it's like buying a wild card. The same goes for WC chameleons, I consider them wild cards. Who knows what diversity they have in their background. A couple males may look exactly like their dads but their siblings may be totally different.
So in short, genetics can always be a bag of surprises. But if you find a breeder that is working with a specific project and you let them know what you are looking for then most of them are happy to help you find an animal that matches what you want.
I wrote a bit about it here, with examples from my own chameleons: Like Father Like Son. You can see that there is a lot of variability, so buying the offspring of one male over another is NO guarantee that you'll get what you want.
But there are a few things that make it more of a certainty. The big one is looking through the family history of a panther or veiled lineage and seeing if the breeder is shooting for a consistent, specific look. If you go to a breeder that has 5-6 generations of pure blue Nosy Be panthers with zero red speckling, then your chances are dramatically higher that you'll get exactly that. Because there is genetic consistency in the background.
However, if you want to buy a pure red and blue Ambilobe, for example, but the lineage shows lots of Ambilobes all over the place (green, yellow, orange, etc.) then it's like buying a wild card. The same goes for WC chameleons, I consider them wild cards. Who knows what diversity they have in their background. A couple males may look exactly like their dads but their siblings may be totally different.
So in short, genetics can always be a bag of surprises. But if you find a breeder that is working with a specific project and you let them know what you are looking for then most of them are happy to help you find an animal that matches what you want.
I just need to sit back and wait. I have yet to see a panther that I thought looked boring. I am a big fan of ambilobes with a white crest. The sire of my guy had a ton of white so I am hoping he will have some himself. Genetics have always fascinated me. Who knows, maybe this is just the start for me !
rajon1080
New Member
Genetics ya
Great info Olimpia!
This leaves me wondering though. Say I'm looking to purchase a YB BB ambilobe. A juvenile male from a long, consistent line of sires has caught my eye, but I don't know much about the dame's lineage. I'm shown the sire of the dame, but, of course, I can't compare coloration or bar shape of the dame to that of her dad, which, even if I could, wouldn't necessarily be a reliable sample size to gauge consistency on the part of the dame.
Also, how much stock can we place in that a breeder has a clutch for sale coming from, lets say, six generations of nearly identical sires? All we know to be definite is the breeder was able to produce a certain look multiple times. Let's say for shits that the breeder had been holding back the entire clutch for each of those six generations and choosing the male that most closely resembled the desired look. This doesn't necessarily speak to the consistency of the clutch as a whole. While be it unlikely, the chosen male could have been a complete outlier. Of course it's unrealistic to assume your breeder has raised an entire clutch to adulthood before choosing the male who will carry on the family name; the point is just that, odds are, the baby you get is probably not going to be the one he would have picked. Unless it's a holdback, you baby probably wouldn't even be one of the closest five offspring to the breeders desired look.
So, other then generational, genetic consistency, what else do we know that might help forecast phenotype inheritance in babies? Do we know if specific, isolated traits are more likely decided by the sire vs. the dame? Is it just a 50/50 crap shoot of genes? What sort of criteria do breeders look for to select a female from a line in the way that they would watch for size, color development & temperament of their holdback males?
Regardless very interesting!
Great info Olimpia!
This leaves me wondering though. Say I'm looking to purchase a YB BB ambilobe. A juvenile male from a long, consistent line of sires has caught my eye, but I don't know much about the dame's lineage. I'm shown the sire of the dame, but, of course, I can't compare coloration or bar shape of the dame to that of her dad, which, even if I could, wouldn't necessarily be a reliable sample size to gauge consistency on the part of the dame.
Also, how much stock can we place in that a breeder has a clutch for sale coming from, lets say, six generations of nearly identical sires? All we know to be definite is the breeder was able to produce a certain look multiple times. Let's say for shits that the breeder had been holding back the entire clutch for each of those six generations and choosing the male that most closely resembled the desired look. This doesn't necessarily speak to the consistency of the clutch as a whole. While be it unlikely, the chosen male could have been a complete outlier. Of course it's unrealistic to assume your breeder has raised an entire clutch to adulthood before choosing the male who will carry on the family name; the point is just that, odds are, the baby you get is probably not going to be the one he would have picked. Unless it's a holdback, you baby probably wouldn't even be one of the closest five offspring to the breeders desired look.
So, other then generational, genetic consistency, what else do we know that might help forecast phenotype inheritance in babies? Do we know if specific, isolated traits are more likely decided by the sire vs. the dame? Is it just a 50/50 crap shoot of genes? What sort of criteria do breeders look for to select a female from a line in the way that they would watch for size, color development & temperament of their holdback males?
Regardless very interesting!
Thompson
Chameleon Enthusiast
Don't we all love genetics!
Genetics is such a confusing topic, but wow is it fascinating. I am in no way a breeder so I cannot comment on the criteria breeders would use but I can offer my knowledge on genetics!
With the yb bb ambilobe you're just gonna have to wait and see if he'll resemble is father! If you knew more about the dame's lineage, such as her mother's phenotype and all other offspring's phenotype then you could better guess the genotypes of each of her parents.But without this information she's just as much of a wild card as a wc cham would be. The key information you need is the parents and their phenotypes and the phenotypes of their first generation, that way you can try and figure out which trait is dominant and which is recessive.
Other than using generational and genetic consistency to try and predict future phenotypes of offspring, sex-linked traits would be my next best guess.The location of an allele in the genome dictates whether a trait is autosomal or X-linked. Of course, the female carries two X chromosomes, and the male carries both an X and Y chromosome so the male determines the sex of the offspring. This also lets us know that if a trait is in fact X-linked or Y-linked (if a trait is Y-linked then only male offsprings will show that phenotype).
X-linked traits are either recessive or dominant. For X-Linked dominant, patterns usually go something like this
-If mom shows the trait and father doesn't, all offsprings show the trait (all offsprings get at least on X chromosome from their mother)
-If mom is not showing the trait but dad is showing the trait, all daughters will show trait and none of the sons will.
For X-linked recessive:
-If mom has trait and father does not, all sons will have the trait and none of the daughters will have the trait.
-If mom is not showing the trait and the father is (talking about phenotype although mom might still carry the trait), then half the daughters will show trait and none of the son's will.
-You'll also get a pattern where half of the sons will show the trait even though both parents are not showing the trait.
Furthermore, you can set up a pedigree for a particular lineage using your understanding of where a trait is on a sex chromosome. The pedigree will allow you to trace inheritance patterns throughout generations.
EDIT: Also if anyone catches anything I am totally wrong on please call me out on it and fix my mistake!
Actually, after thinking more about this sex-linked traits with chameleons may not be a good way to predict inheritance since females and males look nothing a like at all. But I'll leave this up just in case someone finds some relevance.
Genetics is such a confusing topic, but wow is it fascinating. I am in no way a breeder so I cannot comment on the criteria breeders would use but I can offer my knowledge on genetics!
With the yb bb ambilobe you're just gonna have to wait and see if he'll resemble is father! If you knew more about the dame's lineage, such as her mother's phenotype and all other offspring's phenotype then you could better guess the genotypes of each of her parents.But without this information she's just as much of a wild card as a wc cham would be. The key information you need is the parents and their phenotypes and the phenotypes of their first generation, that way you can try and figure out which trait is dominant and which is recessive.
Other than using generational and genetic consistency to try and predict future phenotypes of offspring, sex-linked traits would be my next best guess.The location of an allele in the genome dictates whether a trait is autosomal or X-linked. Of course, the female carries two X chromosomes, and the male carries both an X and Y chromosome so the male determines the sex of the offspring. This also lets us know that if a trait is in fact X-linked or Y-linked (if a trait is Y-linked then only male offsprings will show that phenotype).
X-linked traits are either recessive or dominant. For X-Linked dominant, patterns usually go something like this
-If mom shows the trait and father doesn't, all offsprings show the trait (all offsprings get at least on X chromosome from their mother)
-If mom is not showing the trait but dad is showing the trait, all daughters will show trait and none of the sons will.
For X-linked recessive:
-If mom has trait and father does not, all sons will have the trait and none of the daughters will have the trait.
-If mom is not showing the trait and the father is (talking about phenotype although mom might still carry the trait), then half the daughters will show trait and none of the son's will.
-You'll also get a pattern where half of the sons will show the trait even though both parents are not showing the trait.
Furthermore, you can set up a pedigree for a particular lineage using your understanding of where a trait is on a sex chromosome. The pedigree will allow you to trace inheritance patterns throughout generations.
EDIT: Also if anyone catches anything I am totally wrong on please call me out on it and fix my mistake!
Actually, after thinking more about this sex-linked traits with chameleons may not be a good way to predict inheritance since females and males look nothing a like at all. But I'll leave this up just in case someone finds some relevance.
Last edited:
Thompson
Chameleon Enthusiast
I also found this article if anyone is interested http://www.chameleonnews.com/02MarNozaki.html
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