Chameleon parasites exist in u.s. or is it science fiction???
- Thread starter salty dog
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GoodKarma19
Chameleon Enthusiast
They're uncommon in the environment, though I wouldn't go so far as to call them science fiction, particularly in warmer areas that have feral populations such as Florida. Pinworms, coccidia, and similar parasites are otherwise pretty much limited to our feeder sources... it'd be incredibly rare to find chameleon specific pinworms/etc on, say, a branch you picked up off the ground.
In Canada, for example, I wouldn't at all consider it a risk. I use untreated everything, even for my European starling whose parasites can actually be contacted locally. Use common sense, and it's very easy to avoid and a non issue.
In Canada, for example, I wouldn't at all consider it a risk. I use untreated everything, even for my European starling whose parasites can actually be contacted locally. Use common sense, and it's very easy to avoid and a non issue.
cyberlocc
Chameleon Enthusiast
Full Disclosure.
Salty's question, stems from an argument between me and Petr Nectas. Salty then made a similar statement on the groups, and was told the same. (My incident was long ago, his was recent)
So to clarify. The incident in my case, was a guy wanting to catch a wild Veilied, a Florida wild Veilied.
I told him, he would likely be better off buying a captive. The odds are high the WC from Florida, would be in bad shape and need treatment for Parasites. I told the OP that the cost of the Cham was the small part anyway, and that's not a place to try and cut costs, as it could end up being more in the long-term. (I know this first hand sadly... From past experience)
Petr went nuts on me, he said that Parasites that affect chameleons are not present in the United States. I said, maybe they weren't, but with there being a population of released and likely carrying Veilieds surely they are there now. Especially the population of Veilieds increases as does theirs.
Petr said this isn't the case and WC Veilieds in Florida, or Jackson's in Hawaii will not have Parasites.
That was my deptarure from the Facebook groups. As he threatened me and such, if I hadn't removed my "False Information about Veilieds in Florida, I would be removed from every group he was an Admin"
So Floridian Veilieds, can they or can they not, have coccidia, or the likes
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GoodKarma19
Chameleon Enthusiast
Full Disclosure.
Salty's question, stems from an argument between me and Petr Nectas. Salty then made a similar statement on the groups, and was told the same. (My incident was long ago, his was recent)
So to clarify. The incident in my case, was a guy wanting to catch a wild Veilied, a Florida wild Veilied.
I told him, he would likely be better off buying a captive. The odds are high the WC from Florida, would be in bad shape and need treatment for Parasites. I told the OP that the cost of the Cham was the small part anyway, and that's not a place to try and cut costs, as it could end up being more in the long-term. (I know this first hand sadly... From past experience)
Petr went nuts on me, and that was my deptarure from the Facebook groups. As he threatened me and such, if I hadn't removed my "False Information about Veilieds in Florida, I would be removed from every group he was an Admin"
So Floridian Veilieds, can they or can they not, have coccidia, or the likes
I see! I'd be interested in reading the full post, to get a better picture of both sides. The only FB chamelon group I frequent is CCC, and even then I tend to only read the OP and the first 10 comments at most, unless it's a topic I'm especially interested in for whatever reason. FB is a dumpster fire, and makes our more spirited discussions here look tame.
On topic, I genuinely couldn't tell you if WC Floridian veileds would have parasites or not. I guess it'd depend on whether they were escaped pets (could have had exposure), if they're a few generations in the feral population, whether introduced parasites can survive in Florida, etc etc. I'd be interested in seeing fecal floats from WC specimens! That's the only way to know for sure. I'd have a float performed, at the very least... but that's my general protocol for all animals, WC or not (followed by quarantine if applicable).
JoXie411
Chameleon Enthusiast
IMO from all I’ve read and seen Petr doesn’t like scientific proof. Every article he writes seems to be speculation and provides no backing. I’m just someone who like facts and evidence witch is why I take everything I read from Petr with a giant spoon of salt. I’m sure he’s Knowledgeable But I’m not on that band wagon and my encounters with him have always been “lovely”Full Disclosure.
Salty's question, stems from an argument between me and Petr Nectas. Salty then made a similar statement on the groups, and was told the same. (My incident was long ago, his was recent)
So to clarify. The incident in my case, was a guy wanting to catch a wild Veilied, a Florida wild Veilied.
I told him, he would likely be better off buying a captive. The odds are high the WC from Florida, would be in bad shape and need treatment for Parasites. I told the OP that the cost of the Cham was the small part anyway, and that's not a place to try and cut costs, as it could end up being more in the long-term. (I know this first hand sadly... From past experience)
Petr went nuts on me, he said that Parasites that affect chameleons are not present in the United States. I said, maybe they weren't, but with there being a population of released and likely carrying Veilieds surely they are there now. Especially the population of Veilieds increases as does theirs.
Petr said this isn't the case and WC Veilieds in Florida, or Jackson's in Hawaii will not have Parasites.
That was my deptarure from the Facebook groups. As he threatened me and such, if I hadn't removed my "False Information about Veilieds in Florida, I would be removed from every group he was an Admin"
So Floridian Veilieds, can they or can they not, have coccidia, or the likes
cyberlocc
Chameleon Enthusiast
My incident was long ago, and I no longer have it, however back then the veilieds population was on the news and media alot. There was a rescue, that was working with them and stated they were finding parasites, that said as you did, we dont know if they were recently released or not.
Lets be realistic, people are probably still releasing them today. By mistake or otherwise. So there very well could be reality in what he is saying, all I had to go on was the data that I had recently seen at the time.
I told Salty this, and thats why he made the post, we wanted to get to the bottom of what is the correct answer.
Since she is in the thread, I am curious whats @JacksJill's thoughts are, she is the best authority I know of when it comes to parasites.
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JoXie411
Chameleon Enthusiast
I left 4 years ago and couldn’t be happier without it lol
I understand that parasites that need an intermediate host would disappear from a relocated population. That would not be the case with parasites that have a direct fecal oral life cycle as they would be relocated with the new population.
I would be amazed if a wild caught Jackson's from Hawaii was free of parasites. I'd love to hear from Hawaiian keepers that have bothered to do fecals or any Florida WC keepers that have done so.
I would be amazed if a wild caught Jackson's from Hawaii was free of parasites. I'd love to hear from Hawaiian keepers that have bothered to do fecals or any Florida WC keepers that have done so.
cyberlocc
Chameleon Enthusiast
I would think that many (at least some) that require an Intermediate host could find it elsewhere could they not?
As well as there being some no cares parasites, like Rat Lungworm? Surely thats in Madgascar as it is in Florida, and Hawaii? Not sure the exact effects it would have on a Chameleon, but the effects on humans and dogs, cats is pretty brutal.
I am fairly certain that actually originated there, Rat Lungworm was brought to the US from the WC GALs to the US wasn't it?
Do we have anyone here that collects Veileds or Panthers from Florida (or jackson's from Hawaii) that does not have other chameleons that could taint the findings? It seems that, although it would be difficult to prove that chameleons don't have new world parasites, that we could very quickly verify it if they do. We just have to find the right people who are willing to take a fecal in. I would imagine there would be someone on here that fits that description? If we don't have obvious names, I can see what Facebook can rustle up. Because, I would like to know the answer to this as well!
krikinit
Chameleon Enthusiast
Coccidia cares not if they are wc or ch or anything else. It is ignorant to think they are free of parasites. I really cant stand Petr. I stay away from his posts. I dont care what he has to say. If your an ass about it, then im done listening. He seems like an arrogant man. He continues to attack people verbally. Stay off FB. Its not a good place. If he wants to argue here, it will be moderated better. Dont fight on someone else's turff. make him come here and defend himself. This forum is far from an echo chamber and the voice of reason is louder here. Im really tired of him anyway. There are other experts whom I would rather listen to than a pompous ass.Full Disclosure.
Salty's question, stems from an argument between me and Petr Nectas. Salty then made a similar statement on the groups, and was told the same. (My incident was long ago, his was recent)
So to clarify. The incident in my case, was a guy wanting to catch a wild Veilied, a Florida wild Veilied.
I told him, he would likely be better off buying a captive. The odds are high the WC from Florida, would be in bad shape and need treatment for Parasites. I told the OP that the cost of the Cham was the small part anyway, and that's not a place to try and cut costs, as it could end up being more in the long-term. (I know this first hand sadly... From past experience)
Petr went nuts on me, he said that Parasites that affect chameleons are not present in the United States. I said, maybe they weren't, but with there being a population of released and likely carrying Veilieds surely they are there now. Especially the population of Veilieds increases as does theirs.
Petr said this isn't the case and WC Veilieds in Florida, or Jackson's in Hawaii will not have Parasites.
That was my deptarure from the Facebook groups. As he threatened me and such, if I hadn't removed my "False Information about Veilieds in Florida, I would be removed from every group he was an Admin"
So Floridian Veilieds, can they or can they not, have coccidia, or the likes
I should have said a specific intermediate host. Rats are just about everywhere and Hawaii is having issues with humans getting rat lung worm from eating snail contaminated produce. I don't know if there are different lung worm species at play here. My parasite knowledge isn't that specific.
You wouldn't expect to find lung worm in a second generation chameleon unless the husbandry was appalling. You would need infected chameleon feces to be available to rats and the rats droppings being fed to the snails and the snails to the chameleons.
It is my understanding (sorry no sources ATM) chameleons can die of lung worm if they are to weak to fight it. Stress. Most parasites "goal" is not to kill the host but only to use them to reproduce with a +or- cost to the host.
You wouldn't expect to find lung worm in a second generation chameleon unless the husbandry was appalling. You would need infected chameleon feces to be available to rats and the rats droppings being fed to the snails and the snails to the chameleons.
It is my understanding (sorry no sources ATM) chameleons can die of lung worm if they are to weak to fight it. Stress. Most parasites "goal" is not to kill the host but only to use them to reproduce with a +or- cost to the host.
cyberlocc
Chameleon Enthusiast
IDK about in Florida, but Fecals here where I live they have to be registered as a patient first, so thats 120 and then you pay another 55 for the fecal. So maybe go half on a microscope lol
.And if you do this @dshuld Try to find some really really rough Wild Caughts, to be able to hopefully rule out recent releases.
Oh just saw this, mine was a very long time ago, so I dont have access to it, just Petrs message to me, after, which is out of context to the thread.
Salty may have his? I know salty said that Petr deleted the post, so I am not sure where Petrs reply was, or reasoning or whatever but hopefully @salty dog has something.
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We see a lot of Jackson's from dubious underground sources that are quite sick on this forum. I've always suspected but could not prove that they were imported from Hawaii. I realize this proves nothing because they could easily have been infected while in the importers "facility". I would love to see the results of theses fecals.
krikinit
Chameleon Enthusiast
Dont care how much it is. To make a blanket scientific statement is absurd to say the least. 5 fecals for 5 bills to start is cheap. Research like this would and will likely cost thousands. Dont care. If it can show anything its that parasites are adaptable. To think a critter gets a free pass from any parasite is foolish.IDK about in Florida, but Fecals here where I live they ahve to be registered as a patient first, so thats 120 and then you pay another 55 for the fecal. So maybe go half on a microscope lol
Kristen Wilkins
Chameleon Enthusiast
Im not saying it would be a higher percentage but I can see how it could happen . It would have to be with in a lifecycle however . So many are let out the front door or escape . If Some of those had Coccidia then why not . The spread usually comes from the reptile . With chameleon’s they are type specific But if the chameleon’s are indeed compromised .Full Disclosure.
Salty's question, stems from an argument between me and Petr Nectas. Salty then made a similar statement on the groups, and was told the same. (My incident was long ago, his was recent)
So to clarify. The incident in my case, was a guy wanting to catch a wild Veilied, a Florida wild Veilied.
I told him, he would likely be better off buying a captive. The odds are high the WC from Florida, would be in bad shape and need treatment for Parasites. I told the OP that the cost of the Cham was the small part anyway, and that's not a place to try and cut costs, as it could end up being more in the long-term. (I know this first hand sadly... From past experience)
Petr went nuts on me, he said that Parasites that affect chameleons are not present in the United States. I said, maybe they weren't, but with there being a population of released and likely carrying Veilieds surely they are there now. Especially the population of Veilieds increases as does theirs.
Petr said this isn't the case and WC Veilieds in Florida, or Jackson's in Hawaii will not have Parasites.
That was my deptarure from the Facebook groups. As he threatened me and such, if I hadn't removed my "False Information about Veilieds in Florida, I would be removed from every group he was an Admin"
So Floridian Veilieds, can they or can they not, have coccidia, or the likes
cyberlocc
Chameleon Enthusiast
Well ya, thats cool and all, but its not awfully difficult to perform floats. It would be more work catching the chams
.IMO from all I’ve read and seen Petr doesn’t like scientific proof. Even article he rights seems to be speculation and provides to backing. I’m just someone who like facts and evidence witch is why I take everything I read from Petr with a giant spoon of salt. I’m sure he’s Knowledgeable But I’m not on that band wagon and my encounters with him have always been “lovely”
The issues in Florida and Hawaii are less so out the door escapees, and more like People who plant "chameleon Habitable" trees in there backyards and buy a dozen or 2 veilieds and let them go to have babies that they incubate in soil bins outside and sell the babies. Or they release them out in the wilds, and return to catch the babies later.
The problem with breeding Veilieds, as I think bill even put in a podcast is the low cost of sale, makes it hard to breed and even make back anywhere near what you spent. However if you just plant a few trees in your backyard, and let them go and put up bug lights and bug attracting plants, you have a fully self contained mini cham ecosystem that costs nothing to maintain, so all the babies are virtually free, and then sold for 30 dollars each for quite the profit. They can just attract fruit flies with rotten fruit to feed the babies as well. If chams die or escape they dont care, its only about the money to them, they are the feeders of the Petco machine.
There has been a few of these "Cham Farms" busted in Florida and Hawaii, its the Chameleon Version of a puppy mill.
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