Chameleons and Coccidia - Ponazuril offers new hope
- Thread starter luckykarma
- Start date
Ryan Jarosek
New Member
Another note I would like to make is, It seems the larger the Chameleon the harder time I am having getting them clean.
The younger ones seem to be clearing up a lot faster. The 6 month old Nosey and My 9 month old Ambilobe are still not looking as good as I would have hoped.
I saw an increase in my Ambilobe to about 100. It is possible I just didn't do something correctly but now I am triple checking everything.
The younger ones seem to be clearing up a lot faster. The 6 month old Nosey and My 9 month old Ambilobe are still not looking as good as I would have hoped.
I saw an increase in my Ambilobe to about 100. It is possible I just didn't do something correctly but now I am triple checking everything.
Eric Adrignola
Avid Member
Question - you guys are doing floats? I've always done smears for protozoans. Even the vet was wondering why I would bother with a float (I wanted to buy some fecasol...seems I misplaced mine recently...) for coccidia. Is there any reason a float would be better than a smear for these things?
just asking...
just asking...
Dave Weldon
Avid Member
Howdy Eric,
First for everyone: A float increases the likelihood of spotting any floatable parasites (increased parasite density in a float). It does a lousy job when it come to super-transparent parasites that you need to see wiggling since it tends kill them before you can spot them wiggling
. Where you might get lucky and spot a few coccidia oocysts in a smear of a tiny amount of poop, a float will bring to the top of the fecalyzer (or whatever container you used) all (lots ) of whatever parasites are in the entire poop piece. The difference in the amount of poop used in a fecal float compared to a smear could easily be 100x. Eric: As we watch the numbers go down, we just want to be sure that we have the best chance at seeing any residual coccidia since we want to make sure that we are totally eliminating all of the coccidia or risk the entire cycle starting up again
. Talk about paranoia... Coccidia will drive you nuts if you don't knock it down on the first pass .
Eric Adrignola
Avid Member
I had figured that a float wouldn't result in protozoans floating to the top - I kinda thought they'd lyse. The vet I had spoken to didn't seem to think it woudl be worth it. Since I've never seen so many coccidia on a slide as I see in the above pictures, I think I'll take you word over hers!
I need to order some fecaal test supplies again...
I need to order some fecaal test supplies again...
Nicodemayo
Avid Member
Dave, I would really like to thank you for talking to me and shedding some light into the whole process of fecal examination!
Nic H
Nic H
Ryan Jarosek
New Member
Hey everyone I wanted to post an update on my issue
Final results of my bought with Cociddia
Total 5 Panther Chameleons 3.5 - 9 months old.
The ones with the lowest count to begin with, cleared the fastest. The Sambava had the heaviest load and cleared before the two larger ones. My guess was because It was a Little harder to give the small does I may have been giving slightly more than the dose required.
An adjustment I made for a couple of the larger Panthers
The Ambilobe gained about 15g during the 10 days before the second course of treatment. That was more than the total weight of the Sambava.
Everyone on average had a weight increase of about 15g. What I did with the Nosy Be and the Ambilobe on their last dose was to increase the amount based on weight gain. The reason I decided to do that is they were not showing as much improvement as the rest. After I did that I saw a drastic drop in the cociddia after two days in the two larger Chameleons. The Ambilobe was down to 20 or so and I double checked. Two days later I didn't find any. I haven't been able to get the all clear on the Nosy Be, he has been very creative with hiding his poop. When I find it it is dried up and hard. He was down like the Ambilobe but I haven't seen a 0 yet. Their cages were also cleaned , steamed and plants washed, and dirt changed out.The smaller ones seemed to clear up without the increase.
Weight and age of everyone
Ambilobe Female 6 months 60g
Ambanja - 6 months 61g - Only had a few hundred to start with
Sambava - 3.5 months Heaviest load - smallest at 12.5g to start
Ambilobe 9 months - 125g -
Nosy Be 6 months - Second Heaviest load 62g
How many days each took to clear.
Ambilobe Female - 7 days
Ambanja - 9 days
Sambava - 11 days
Ambilobe Male 15 days
Nosy Be 15 days
Final results of my bought with Cociddia
Total 5 Panther Chameleons 3.5 - 9 months old.
The ones with the lowest count to begin with, cleared the fastest. The Sambava had the heaviest load and cleared before the two larger ones. My guess was because It was a Little harder to give the small does I may have been giving slightly more than the dose required.
An adjustment I made for a couple of the larger Panthers
The Ambilobe gained about 15g during the 10 days before the second course of treatment. That was more than the total weight of the Sambava.
Everyone on average had a weight increase of about 15g. What I did with the Nosy Be and the Ambilobe on their last dose was to increase the amount based on weight gain. The reason I decided to do that is they were not showing as much improvement as the rest. After I did that I saw a drastic drop in the cociddia after two days in the two larger Chameleons. The Ambilobe was down to 20 or so and I double checked. Two days later I didn't find any. I haven't been able to get the all clear on the Nosy Be, he has been very creative with hiding his poop. When I find it it is dried up and hard. He was down like the Ambilobe but I haven't seen a 0 yet. Their cages were also cleaned , steamed and plants washed, and dirt changed out.The smaller ones seemed to clear up without the increase.
Weight and age of everyone
Ambilobe Female 6 months 60g
Ambanja - 6 months 61g - Only had a few hundred to start with
Sambava - 3.5 months Heaviest load - smallest at 12.5g to start
Ambilobe 9 months - 125g -
Nosy Be 6 months - Second Heaviest load 62g
How many days each took to clear.
Ambilobe Female - 7 days
Ambanja - 9 days
Sambava - 11 days
Ambilobe Male 15 days
Nosy Be 15 days
Dave Weldon
Avid Member
Howdy Ryan,
Great news! Thanks for keeping track of the Coccidia rate of decrease using Ponazuril. As more of that kind of data is collected, we'll all get a better indication of how long treatment takes so that those who don't have a microscope will be more assured that they too, can clear Coccidia from their chameleons within a given treatment plan. Gotta love those microscopes .
Great news! Thanks for keeping track of the Coccidia rate of decrease using Ponazuril. As more of that kind of data is collected, we'll all get a better indication of how long treatment takes so that those who don't have a microscope will be more assured that they too, can clear Coccidia from their chameleons within a given treatment plan
. Gotta love those microscopes .luckykarma
New Member
Thanks Ryan. Hopefully this data gives people a better picture of Ponazuril vs Albon. With all the positive data here imho no one should ever subject their Chams to Albon now that Ponazuril is available. I spoke to Dave Weldon and he likes to see more data just so people with no microscopes can get a definitive time line for clearing.
This control group consisted of 8 animals ranging from 3 months to 1.5 yrs. In all cases the coccidia was completely cleared not merely knocked down. I think I would recommend Dr. Stein's regiment of 3 days on 1 week off 3 days on opposed to the other data out there showing dosing every 48 hours for three doses, a week off, then repeat the 48 hour regiment. I tried that with one animal and didn't see the kill rate/ratio I saw by sticking to Dr. Stein's which looks to clear it completely after 3 weeks.
One caveat: reinfection. I know I mentioned this but its critical once you're clearing not to get reinfection due to habitat not properly sterilized. If you don't have a microscope and don't practice sterilizing the habitat you will get the parasite cleared but then have it re-infect the animal. If you don't have a microscope then you need to give your animals the best chance of never seeing this parasite again by cleaning properly. I know its a pain. But consider this. All mine are free range and live in 7 foot trees. I had to sanitize 7 foot trees. Their baskets. The rocks in the base of the tree that covered the soil. Remove the top layer of soil, boil out ..... you get the picture. I had to do that weekly until I clearer it under the bad old Albon days.
If you have a cage with small plants, etc. then it should be a snap!
One of the member's vet couldn't find a compound pharmacy that had ponazuril. Dr. Stein used one in Arizona.
The pharmacy is called:
Diamondback Drugs
480.946.2223
This control group consisted of 8 animals ranging from 3 months to 1.5 yrs. In all cases the coccidia was completely cleared not merely knocked down. I think I would recommend Dr. Stein's regiment of 3 days on 1 week off 3 days on opposed to the other data out there showing dosing every 48 hours for three doses, a week off, then repeat the 48 hour regiment. I tried that with one animal and didn't see the kill rate/ratio I saw by sticking to Dr. Stein's which looks to clear it completely after 3 weeks.
One caveat: reinfection. I know I mentioned this but its critical once you're clearing not to get reinfection due to habitat not properly sterilized. If you don't have a microscope and don't practice sterilizing the habitat you will get the parasite cleared but then have it re-infect the animal. If you don't have a microscope then you need to give your animals the best chance of never seeing this parasite again by cleaning properly. I know its a pain. But consider this. All mine are free range and live in 7 foot trees. I had to sanitize 7 foot trees. Their baskets. The rocks in the base of the tree that covered the soil. Remove the top layer of soil, boil out ..... you get the picture. I had to do that weekly until I clearer it under the bad old Albon days.
If you have a cage with small plants, etc. then it should be a snap!
One of the member's vet couldn't find a compound pharmacy that had ponazuril. Dr. Stein used one in Arizona.
The pharmacy is called:
Diamondback Drugs
480.946.2223
Last edited:
Dave Weldon
Avid Member
Howdy Brian,
Marquis is Bayer's name brand for Ponazuril which is the generic version of the drug
.luckykarma
New Member
The formula is correct but I made an error in volume/weight.
Correctly it should have read:
.1kg x 30mg/kg divide by 60mg/ml = .05ml
You could use Marquis, it's active ingredient is ponazuril, but if you guys can get it compounded I would ... marquis is a helluva lot more expensive since you'd need to buy a horse sized tube ... and about the cheapest that you'd be able to get marquis for is about $175-190 (no, a decimil point is not missing! ) although, it would probably last you a lifetime.
) although, it would probably last you a lifetime.
jmyeager
New Member
While the formula written on the first line is correct, the example is wrong. You should be multiplying the weight times the dose (mg/kg) and then dividing this by the concentration of the med (mg/ml). It is very important to plug the right things into the equation to prevent giving an incorrect dose. You may want to check this before dosing your chams
Example
cham weight 69g, dose of a medication is 40mg/kg, and concentration of this med is 20mg/ml
(0.069kgX40mg/kg)/20mg/ml=0.138ml for each dose
Chamaeleoeo
New Member
should i be concerned about using albon?? and should i already start cleaning daily as soon as treatment has begun?
luckykarma
New Member
You vet might give you a different opinion than you see here. Vets like to go with what they feel is proven. So this is just my opinion.
Everyone I have ever talked to who has had their animal on Albon experienced their animal losing its appetite after 3 doses. Most either stop or resort to assit feeding. You also have to be aware that Albon can damage the kidneys so you must make sure the animal is well hydrated during the time its on Albon.
Many reported after the loss of appetite it took weeks to months before the animal finally ate on its own. One of mine actually took three months before eating on his own. For these reasons I don't care for Albon now that Ponazuril is available. Conversely no one has ever reported an animal losing its appetite while on Ponazuril.
Cleaning the cage is a debate as well. I conferred with Dave Weldon and we both waited until the animal was getting clean before total atomic cleaning.
Since my guys are freerange I was able to rid them of coccidia and their 7' ficus tree with soapy water and a power washer. Others here get a little more dramatic and want you throw everything away. Whatever works for people is fine. I've never thrown anything away. I'm a big fan of boiling water. On things that can be removed I pour boiling water over them. Its less harmful than ammonia baths which destroy the fake vines and more.
Dave has discovered industrial strength Hydrogen Peroxide works although we can't confirm it. Dave found the research done by people in Canada.
I can confirm its safe for plants as I regularly soaked a small ficus during a recent bout willing to sacrifice the tree as an experiment. No harm done to the tree or its leaves. This was done close to a dozen time with hydrogen peroxide left on the tree for 10 - 20 minutes then rinsed off.
Good luck!
Everyone I have ever talked to who has had their animal on Albon experienced their animal losing its appetite after 3 doses. Most either stop or resort to assit feeding. You also have to be aware that Albon can damage the kidneys so you must make sure the animal is well hydrated during the time its on Albon.
Many reported after the loss of appetite it took weeks to months before the animal finally ate on its own. One of mine actually took three months before eating on his own. For these reasons I don't care for Albon now that Ponazuril is available. Conversely no one has ever reported an animal losing its appetite while on Ponazuril.
Cleaning the cage is a debate as well. I conferred with Dave Weldon and we both waited until the animal was getting clean before total atomic cleaning.
Since my guys are freerange I was able to rid them of coccidia and their 7' ficus tree with soapy water and a power washer. Others here get a little more dramatic and want you throw everything away. Whatever works for people is fine. I've never thrown anything away. I'm a big fan of boiling water. On things that can be removed I pour boiling water over them. Its less harmful than ammonia baths which destroy the fake vines and more.
Dave has discovered industrial strength Hydrogen Peroxide works although we can't confirm it. Dave found the research done by people in Canada.
I can confirm its safe for plants as I regularly soaked a small ficus during a recent bout willing to sacrifice the tree as an experiment. No harm done to the tree or its leaves. This was done close to a dozen time with hydrogen peroxide left on the tree for 10 - 20 minutes then rinsed off.
Good luck!
Chamaeleoeo
New Member
thank you so much for the response. right now i am noticing his lack of appetite as he is voracious otherwise. glad to hear about the peroxide working as i just went out and picked up some 6% today in preparation for the cleansing. but i would also like to ask about the force feeding...how do you go about doing this? any less stressful ways??
luckykarma
New Member
I was trying to gently move you away from using Albon and switch to Ponazuril. If you want to continue with Albon you will have to assis feed eventually. Assist feeding does stress out the animal. I really dislike doing it and all mine are freerange and used to being handled. They still stress.
Everyone probably has their own way of doing it. If you can get them to gape that's good otherwise you will have to force their mouth open.
I use the same feeders they're used to getting and pound them up with whatever supplement they're scheduled to get that day. Then I put it into a large syringe with a hole big enough that the meal can get through. If you go into a drug store they have large syringes. I enlarge the hole more by drilling it out then wash it and put it into boiling water to sterilize it.
While its a drag to get them to open more than once I don't like to overload them with food in their mouths. Especially animals that have never had this done before they might spit it out. After a number of times they get the idea you're not trying to harm them and will swallow each time.
But why go through all that when you can get Ponazuril that doesn't kill the appetite or damage the kidneys?
Everyone probably has their own way of doing it. If you can get them to gape that's good otherwise you will have to force their mouth open.
I use the same feeders they're used to getting and pound them up with whatever supplement they're scheduled to get that day. Then I put it into a large syringe with a hole big enough that the meal can get through. If you go into a drug store they have large syringes. I enlarge the hole more by drilling it out then wash it and put it into boiling water to sterilize it.
While its a drag to get them to open more than once I don't like to overload them with food in their mouths. Especially animals that have never had this done before they might spit it out. After a number of times they get the idea you're not trying to harm them and will swallow each time.
But why go through all that when you can get Ponazuril that doesn't kill the appetite or damage the kidneys?
