Civility and good will

[Decadancin]

Good points. Should fogging be mainstream though? I think mist vs fog is a good example of 2 ways of doing something that can meet at the same result. Fogging might be more practical, I plan to do it this winter indoors and cut down on misting. I don't have to do it outside for summer. I don't think there is any evidence that chameleons live any longer or better lives with fogging over misting though? And that is assuming someone misting is doing it correctly. I get that the fog is more natural, but I don't see one method being much superior over the other. JMO, but I believe using bioactive substrate to have more positive benefits than barebottom and it is also natural, but it hasn't caught on as fast*. I'm biased though and we will always defend our own choices to some degree so I'm alright with that. I have no issues with people fogging/misting or using barebottom/substrate.

Mainstream doesn't mean fits all situations! I actually do both. I remember telling plenty people over the years that fog at night would lead to mold and mildew. I have not seen any evidence of this, so even I can learn new things . I don't think I have the patience for a bio-active, but who knows.

Hmmm, sounds like a very civil discussion going on here ...

 

[jamest0o0]

Mainstream doesn't mean fits all situations! I actually do both. I remember telling plenty people over the years that fog at night would lead to mold and mildew. I have not seen any evidence of this, so even I can learn new things . I don't think I have the patience for a bio-active, but who knows.

Hmmm, sounds like a very civil discussion going on here ...

I hope so. I have a way even in person, to get drawn deep into discussion lol. I don't mean to offend and I try to watch my wording.

 

[JacksJill]

I don't think there is any evidence that chameleons live any longer or better lives with fogging over misting though?

It's not so much fogging over misting but more fogging at night and much less misting if I understand correctly.
I believe Petr is working on a project to prove his point currently. I look forward to his results. I have been promoting his ideas and research here even before Jann's thread got so much traction. I haven't entirely embraced all of his practices but I'm keeping an open mind and waiting for evidence. He's hinted that it is going well.

 

[jamest0o0]

It's not so much fogging over misting but more fogging at night and much less misting if I understand correctly.
I believe Petr is working on a project to prove his point currently. I look forward to his results. I have been promoting his ideas and research here even before Jann's thread got so much traction. I haven't entirely embraced all of his practices but I'm keeping an open mind and waiting for evidence. He's hinted that it is going well.

Yup, I heard about his ideas before they made it here as well. Few years ago I followed what he said on facebook often. I'm not disagreeing with the fogging at night, I'm saying that misting correctly seems to do the job just fine also.

 

[KobaOregonherper]

Nobody is slamming anybody idt? and if they are they are wrong for that. Maybe I'm on a different page than others, but slamming the box stores is a proactive measure, not a way to put people that did it down.

As much as we are mad at that breeder, fact of the matter is, the petco you got beman from probably killed twice as many animals in a week than any of the breeders here have in a lifetime. I know you're newer with reptiles and that's cool so maybe you don't or maybe you do know this(no offense intended, just friendly debate) but it's not just chameleons at these stores suffering. Nearly everything they sell probably has a 90%?? chance of premature death

So the way you saw bahari suffer, imagine seeing that on a regular basis, from the saltwater fish they shouldn't carry to leopard geckos and any other animals. I'm sure there's a few decent Petco out there, but they are still part of an organization that promotes animal abuse to make a profit.

Look how we blew up on a once respected breeder of this site, yet petco as an organization, hands out diseased and dying animals on a daily basis and a MASSIVE scale, but it's meh?

Sometimes I think we become complacent to bad things if they are on a large enough scale.

Exactly. @Beman If someone buys from a big box store, look through my posts, ive never attacked or "slammed" anyone for that. Its always, heres what to fix, dont trust the big box stores for your info and we dont recommend purchasing from them. I get snarky and rude when we use the word "rescue". The only time really people use "rescue" is because they generally know better but feel they couldnt help but buy the chameleon. But I havent seen anyone slamming someone for it.

Being a new member (joined about 3 months ago) and not even having my chameleon yet. I can relate to all the people who buy a chameleon thinking that they are doing everything correctly. Because they did ask the place they bought it what husbandry steps should be taken. Only to have them get sick, injured, or on their deathbeds. They do what everyone does now a days. They google search it, find this site, post out of desperation on not wanting their loved pet to get worse or even die. But I have seen some of those posts go badly were to new member was made to feel like they are doing everything wrong and its their fault that they didn't find this site before they purchased their chameleon and they don't care if their chameleon dies or not.

One the flip side, we do have members that simply say, welcome to the site. Please replace that equipment with this. You should add this and take out that. You should be using this supplement and so on. Which I applaud those members that explain nicely what is wrong with what they are doing and how to correct it.

Maybe for the "my baby is sick" posts, we should just focus on the immediate life threatening needs of the chameleon and not list $500+ worth of products that must be replaced all at once. Because we all know the high ownership costs of having them and most people just paid $300 for the chameleon and another $150 for the complete chameleon kit. Getting another huge list of products to buy I think is overwhelming a lot of the new people.

Please link the thread where someone didnt care if someones chameleon died or not. No one here, that ive seen, has ever not cared if someone elses chameleon lived or died. Unless we're being a tad dramatic. If someones being belligerent and flippent with us and not taking advice we'll tell them to get lost lol. But if they own the chameleon and want actual help and not their ego stroked, people care.

 

[KobaOregonherper]

It's not so much fogging over misting but more fogging at night and much less misting if I understand correctly.
I believe Petr is working on a project to prove his point currently. I look forward to his results. I have been promoting his ideas and research here even before Jann's thread got so much traction. I haven't entirely embraced all of his practices but I'm keeping an open mind and waiting for evidence. He's hinted that it is going well.

True naturalistuc hydration. I love the theory. Cant seem to get it down correctly.

 

[Tony_S]

Please link the thread where someone didnt care if someones chameleon died or not. No one here, that ive seen, has ever not cared if someone elses chameleon lived or died. Unless we're being a tad dramatic. If someones being belligerent and flippent with us and not taking advice we'll tell them to get lost lol. But if they own the chameleon and want actual help and not their ego stroked, people care.

I'm referring to the sick chameleon owner being made to feel like they don't care if their chameleon dies or not because they haven't hurried up and ordered all the suggested equipment with overnight delivery.

 

[JoXie411]

The only time really people use "rescue" is because they generally know better but feel they couldnt help but buy the chameleon.

Fake news. Rescue to me is giving something a better life then letting it die a slow painful life while ugly ppl staring at you doing nothing to help.

Try not to bundle everyone into a general category, we all have different life experiences that make our point of views different. I grow up a hunter my dad would tell me during our longer hiking trips while tracking “ as humans it’s our responsibility to maintain the ecosystem, take what we need and leave what we don’t. If you see an animal in pain help it, why watch something suffer when you can help put an end to it. We humans forget the power of our voices and we are the voice for the voiceless creature who need us to teach others to open our hearts to all wakes of life. Just because we are the top of the food chain doesn’t mean we need to be heartless and over take the world.”

I’m not going to reply to this thread I said what I needed to say. I don’t expect anyone to agree with me

 

[KobaOregonherper]

I'm referring to the sick chameleon owner being made to feel like they don't care if their chameleon dies or not because they haven't hurried up and ordered all the suggested equipment with overnight delivery.

Thats understandable. Sometimes our urgency comes across as insensitivity. Unfortunately with chameleons it takes almost no time at all for them to go so far down hill they cant make it back up. Our sense of urgency with people fixing their situations immediately is because of this. I know we arent always the best at showing it, especially when we get the line "well I cant afford those things". It goes along with the impulse buy, of you cant afford to keep the animal and then fix a bad situation when it rears its ugly head, you shouldnt have the animal. But yes I can see where that can come across that way.

 

[KobaOregonherper]

Fake news. Rescue to me is giving something a better life then letting it die a slow painful life while ugly ppl staring at you doing nothing to help.

Try not to bundle everyone into a general category, we all have different life experiences that make our point of views different. I grow up a hunter my dad would tell me during our longer hiking trips while tracking “ as humans it’s our responsibility to maintain the ecosystem, take what we need and leave what we don’t. If you see an animal in pain help it, why watch something suffer when you can help put an end to it. We humans forget the power of our voices and we are the voice for the voiceless creature who need us to teach others to open our hearts to all wakes of life. Just because we are the top of the food chain doesn’t mean we need to be heartless and over take the world.”

I’m not going to reply to this thread I said what I needed to say. I don’t expect anyone to agree with me

Lol @JoXie411 was wondering when youd respond. I dont base my opinions on pure emotion though. So not fake news, just not the news you agree with.

Edit: otherwise I agree with you to a degree. If I had it my way, Id buy out the right to export all chameleons to help keep the WC ones in check and then Id buy out all these crappy companies that sell to the big bix stores and shut them down. Bit extreme, but im also sick of watching chameleons be abused in captivity.

 

[jamest0o0]

Fake news. Rescue to me is giving something a better life then letting it die a slow painful life while ugly ppl staring at you doing nothing to help.

Try not to bundle everyone into a general category, we all have different life experiences that make our point of views different. I grow up a hunter my dad would tell me during our longer hiking trips while tracking “ as humans it’s our responsibility to maintain the ecosystem, take what we need and leave what we don’t. If you see an animal in pain help it, why watch something suffer when you can help put an end to it. We humans forget the power of our voices and we are the voice for the voiceless creature who need us to teach others to open our hearts to all wakes of life. Just because we are the top of the food chain doesn’t mean we need to be heartless and over take the world.”

I’m not going to reply to this thread I said what I needed to say. I don’t expect anyone to agree with me

I can agree with all that. For sure we are rescuing one, but then if we are giving ourselves the credit for rescuing that animal, then we're also responsible for the ones they restock because of that sale, no? I know you said you're not replying and seem a little upset by this, but I thought we could have a friendly debate without fighting and name calling? No one here is mad at you for your opinion(I'm suee not). I respect that you'll disagree at times, nobody likes a yes man/woman. I disagree with some of your views on this subject, but it doesn't mean I think any less of you or anyone else that feels the same.

And let's be fair, it's human nature to lump people into categories. We've all done it. Impossible to avoid.

 

[KobaOregonherper]

I can agree with all that. For sure we are rescuing one, but then if we are giving ourselves the credit for rescuing that animal, then we're also responsible for the ones they restock because of that sale, no? I know you said you're not replying and seem a little upset by this, but I thought we could have a friendly debate without fighting and name calling? No one here is mad at you for your opinion(I'm suee not). I respect that you'll disagree at times, nobody likes a yes man/woman. I disagree with some of your views on this subject, but it doesn't mean I think any less of you or anyone else that feels the same.

And let's be fair, it's human nature to lump people into categories. We've all done it. Impossible to avoid.

100% this

 

[JoXie411]

Lol @JoXie411 was wondering when youd respond. I dont base my opinions on pure emotion though. So not fake news, just not the news you agree with.

Edit: otherwise I agree with you to a degree. If I had it my way, Id buy out the right to export all chameleons to help keep the WC ones in check and then Id buy out all these crappy companies that sell to the big bix stores and shut them down. Bit extreme, but im also sick of watching chameleons be abused in captivity.

Iv been in the shadows biting my tongue, I’m trying to avoid heated debates lol but I’m a passionate person and it gets me in trouble a lot.

If only unicorns really pooped rainbows but we don’t live in that perfect world. Yes I’m extremely tired of seeing chameleons be abused as well my heartbreaks when I see it.

I can agree with all that. For sure we are rescuing one, but then if we are giving ourselves the credit for rescuing that animal, then we're also responsible for the ones they restock because of that sale, no? I know you said you're not replying and seem a little upset by this, but I thought we could have a friendly debate without fighting and name calling? No one here is mad at you for your opinion(I'm suee not). I respect that you'll disagree at times, nobody likes a yes man/woman. I disagree with some of your views on this subject, but it doesn't mean I think any less of you or anyone else that feels the same.

And let's be fair, it's human nature to lump people into categories. We've all done it. Impossible to avoid.

Yes I agree with you on the sale part, ideally yes I would want them to do the right thing and give me the cham for free because we all know an expensive vet trip is going to be the next stop.

Yes I could have not payed for Imelda and let her go into the hands of someone who didn’t know how to care for female chameleons and risk them killing her witch was her next step in the next few weeks of a major husbandry change wasn’t made. I made the choose to pay the old owner for her because I wanted her to die with dignity and not in that nasty small cage with burns all over her body. Yes I got emotion there but my emotion is what go me into this hobby. If I didn’t have I would be like all that that person who was giving there cham a bath

I respect everyone and there point of views. We don’t always have to agree but we can remember to give respect

 

[jamest0o0]

Iv been in the shadows biting my tongue, I’m trying to avoid heated debates lol but I’m a passionate person and it gets me in trouble a lot.

If only unicorns really pooped rainbows but we don’t live in that perfect world. Yes I’m extremely tired of seeing chameleons be abused as well my heartbreaks when I see it.

Yes I agree with you on the sale part, ideally yes I would want them to do the right thing and give me the cham for free because we all know an expensive vet trip is going to be the next stop.

Yes I could have not payed for Imelda and let her go into the hands of someone who didn’t know how to care for female chameleons and risk them killing her witch was her next step in the next few weeks of a major husbandry change wasn’t made. I made the choose to pay the old owner for her because I wanted her to die with dignity and not in that nasty small cage with burns all over her body. Yes I got emotion there but my emotion is what go me into this hobby. If I didn’t have I would be like all that that person who was giving there cham a bath

I respect everyone and there point of views. We don’t always have to agree but we can remember to give respect View attachment 243107

Could you please fill out the how to ask for help form.

 

[jamest0o0]

Iv been in the shadows biting my tongue, I’m trying to avoid heated debates lol but I’m a passionate person and it gets me in trouble a lot.

If only unicorns really pooped rainbows but we don’t live in that perfect world. Yes I’m extremely tired of seeing chameleons be abused as well my heartbreaks when I see it.

Yes I agree with you on the sale part, ideally yes I would want them to do the right thing and give me the cham for free because we all know an expensive vet trip is going to be the next stop.

Yes I could have not payed for Imelda and let her go into the hands of someone who didn’t know how to care for female chameleons and risk them killing her witch was her next step in the next few weeks of a major husbandry change wasn’t made. I made the choose to pay the old owner for her because I wanted her to die with dignity and not in that nasty small cage with burns all over her body. Yes I got emotion there but my emotion is what go me into this hobby. If I didn’t have I would be like all that that person who was giving there cham a bath

I respect everyone and there point of views. We don’t always have to agree but we can remember to give respect View attachment 243107

Jk jk!!!

Glad to have you here, it's all good. My bad for coming off a little aggressive yesterday about it, could have worded my point better. I've been wired on caffeine and like 3 hrs of sleep everyday so I'm a little crazy ATM lol...I know you have great intentions and i think any of us posting here do.

I also agree, i think everything has been said on the subject so why don't we all settle down, and go attack some new members like the chamily we're supposed to be. And so god help me if one person doesn't fill out the help form...

 

[KobaOregonherper]

Iv been in the shadows biting my tongue, I’m trying to avoid heated debates lol but I’m a passionate person and it gets me in trouble a lot.

If only unicorns really pooped rainbows but we don’t live in that perfect world. Yes I’m extremely tired of seeing chameleons be abused as well my heartbreaks when I see it.

Yes I agree with you on the sale part, ideally yes I would want them to do the right thing and give me the cham for free because we all know an expensive vet trip is going to be the next stop.

Yes I could have not payed for Imelda and let her go into the hands of someone who didn’t know how to care for female chameleons and risk them killing her witch was her next step in the next few weeks of a major husbandry change wasn’t made. I made the choose to pay the old owner for her because I wanted her to die with dignity and not in that nasty small cage with burns all over her body. Yes I got emotion there but my emotion is what go me into this hobby. If I didn’t have I would be like all that that person who was giving there cham a bath

I respect everyone and there point of views. We don’t always have to agree but we can remember to give respect View attachment 243107

Well said

 

[DartFrogKeeper]

Curious, what would be an example of this? People love to bring this 'doing things different' idea up, but I don't really know of any examples? Bioactive has almost gone mainstream, glass vs screen is old debate, fogging is cool now, not really sure what someone could come along and do differently that could have a purpose, but gets shut down?

Don't get me wrong I love an interesting topic that is truly different, like maybe replacing dusting with isopods, snails, and whole vert prey. Or experimenting with different gutloads to dust or feed in order to help health concerns or rid parasites. Things like that I think should get open arms, but I don't see topics like this often.

That's a good question and my example answer was going to be bioactive but if that's pretty much mainstream now I'm not sure what it would be really. I always like seeing people succeed with their own twist on things though. Like the woman from Canada who free ranges Mellers who was on the chameleon breeder podcast. She hand mists them, no mist king and is still really successful. She has some interesting videos on YouTube too.

 

[cham_urchin]

Thanks everybody, for your thoughtful posts and discussion. I've learned a lot more about this community and how we work as a group, as seen from many perspectives. I so value this wellspring of knowledge and and experience which has been so vital for me as a new keeper.

On a side note, I saw a gravid female veiled in a Petsmart recently. Same store I got my guy Pete. She was clinging to one of the few branches in a bare enclosure, her eyes closed. I spoke to the manager and printed out a caresheet from this site for her to follow, and told her she needed to provide a lay bin immediately if she wanted to save that poor girl. I'm afraid to go back. Can't look. Hopefully that caresheet gets studied and things get better for that little creature under their care.

 

[Lennoncham]

Thanks everybody, for your thoughtful posts and discussion. I've learned a lot more about this community and how we work as a group, as seen from many perspectives. I so value this wellspring of knowledge and and experience which has been so vital for me as a new keeper.

On a side note, I saw a gravid female veiled in a Petsmart recently. Same store I got my guy Pete. She was clinging to one of the few branches in a bare enclosure, her eyes closed. I spoke to the manager and printed out a caresheet from this site for her to follow, and told her she needed to provide a lay bin immediately if she wanted to save that poor girl. I'm afraid to go back. Can't look. Hopefully that caresheet gets studied and things get better for that little creature under their care.

I hope the manager takes your advice. It’s hard for them to do to much as well because they have corporate rules but i think if we can educate enough of the store managers they could push for the changes.

 

[OldChamKeeper]

I'm just going take a moment here.

Stop buying stuff from the big box stores. Period.

Support your local independent pet store, your feed and grain stores, and others that sell the basics you need. Hell, buy online if you have to. The vast majority of breeders sell online as well.

When you support a business that has become to huge to listen to it's customers, that has no conscious either, you are part of the issue whether or not you want to hear it.

I DO practice what I preach. I buy all my regular pet supplies from a little store. For the reptile stuff I either visit my local herp store or buy online. I have not set foot in a petco or a petsmart in almost ten years. It would be convienent to do that for dog food, but, when you walk in for dog food you as a reptile keeper eventually walk over to their reptiles. They plan on you doing that, seriously.

Each live animal is called a 'lost leader'. That is to say the company expects to lose money on the animal but make up for it and make a profit when you buy the dry goods to go with it. If the animal dies, or is sold, either way they don't profit. They profit when you buy all the stuff to go with it.