Cohabitation of a chameleon and a Phelsuma

[Cainschams]

there are no such things as chameleon herds unless it is your own personal collection lol. .

I dont even know what to say

 

[Syn]

I dont even know what to say

So you're telling me my hopes and dreams of finding herds of chameleons will never come true?

 

[morpheon]

To anyone who is interested in posting something on this topic, first, PLEASE know that I HAVE DONE NOTHING YET. Also know that IF YOU CARE FOR THE ANIMALS, your help would be useful EVEN IF YOU DISAGREE with what i have written before, because at the end i MIGHT be doing it anyway and if you can give me tips it might save a life.

I think this is a very interesting topic, and keeping it clean would be very useful for the overall knowledge of chameleon husbandry. This may be wishful thinking, i just hope to be wrong on this hypothesis (the wishful thinking hypothesis).

 

[Monkeykungphu]

If I'm understanding you correctly Morpheon, you would like to try this out to determine whether or not the chameleon will basically eat the gecko or would he not? Kind of like a game of Russian roulette, wouldn't you say? We all know chameleons can & will eat a gecko at times. Which times, who knows... but, it may or may not happen & is totally possible at any point.

Even if the gecko is too large, what if you're chameleon tries & they both die in the process? Too many bad variables in my opinion to justify the benefits of an experiment such as this. The meaning of "trivial" was mentioned before. Sorry, but I believe this purpose of this experiment would be "trivial" & the results could be potentially dangerous. Not worth it in my opinion.

Respectfully,

 

[robmd1]

cant believe some of the threads nowadays.... no wonder the people who i want answers from"people who actually know what there talkin about" dont post as much with this kinda crap..

 

[FFSTRescue]

I think this is a very interesting topic, and keeping it clean would be very useful for the overall knowledge of chameleon husbandry. This may be wishful thinking, i just hope to be wrong on this hypothesis (the wishful thinking hypothesis).

There is quite a bit of reading in this thread, so if you could restate your hypothesis in one sentence, that would be helpful. Thank you.

 

[morpheon]

If I'm understanding you correctly Morpheon, you would like to try this out to determine whether or not the chameleon will basically eat the gecko or would he not? Kind of like a game of Russian roulette, wouldn't you say? We all know chameleons can & will eat a gecko at times. Which times, who knows... but, it may or may not happen & is totally possible at any point.

Even if the gecko is too large, what if you're chameleon tries & they both die in the process? Too many bad variables in my opinion to justify the benefits of an experiment such as this. The meaning of "trivial" was mentioned before. I believet this experiment would be "trivial"

Respectfully,

I appreciate your opinion and your respectful way of writing your message and i thank you for this.

To this, i would simply answer that so far i have read three cases that did succeed over a year period (or almost for the 2nd). From this fact, i do not really consider it a russian roulette, otherwise i wouldn't try it. Of course, it is risky, but who has never taken any risks?

At the end, i think it is a matter of personal choice to determine weither or not should I do it. If your choice is to never try it, i respect you and i think this is a good idea. However, that doesn't mean that trying it out wouldn't be a good idea too.

Is the risk too much? I don't know yet and i am still trying to determine it. Otherwise, i wouldn't be hear ASKING for similar anecdotes (stories). Some people (i am not pointing at anybody by the way) are judging the risk without getting enough information and just giving their opinions without basing it on scientific facts. My goal, as of now, is to get enough information to decide if the risk is too much or not! So far, if you want my personal opinion (i assume you do, if not i apologize), i think it's worth the risk. However, if there was several TRUE stories that proves that the risk isn't worth it, i'd be damned to still try it!

I would add that i am quite sad to see that i get so much attack and disrespect for trying to gather information. I have not done anything wrong so far (in this subject - not in life!!) and yet i still get attacked. I repeat that i have not killed anything yet, that i care for my chameleon as my daily readings and husbandry conditions can prove (see my signature for pictures). From this, i will not risk my chameleon for a stupid risk. Now if anybody claims that it is a stupid risk, please, make sure to have REAL SCIENTIFIC FACTS to support what you say.


Money: some of this topic was meant to you, some of the other was meant to the readers and futur posters of this topic. I just would like to know again that i appreciate your post and i do not hold and grudge against you, at all, even if your opinion may not be exactly the same than mine.

 

[morpheon]

There is quite a bit of reading in this thread, so if you could restate your hypothesis in one sentence, that would be helpful. Thank you.

Kristen, my hypothesis in this sentence is that i think it is wishful thinking to think this thread might remain clean in the future (is my sentence Ok???). Now if you wanted to know my initial hypothesis about this topic, the overal question is: is it possible to have a Phelsuma Madagascariensis live with a Furcifer Pardalis without any of them hurting in any way the other. This also includes stress and immune problems.

Rob, i am not sure to understand what you really meant and i would like to know more (here or in private, as you want).



EDIT: Corrected Kristen's name (i wrote "Kirsten" before)

 

[FFSTRescue]

Kristen, my hypothesis in this sentence is that i think it is wishful thinking to think this thread might remain clean in the future (is my sentence Ok???). Now if you wanted to know my initial hypothesis about this topic, the overal question is: is it possible to have a Phelsuma Madagascariensis live with a Furcifer Pardalis without any of them hurting in any way the other. This also includes stress and immune problems.

I meant of this thread in general, I'm more interested in science and facts than the "side stuff" which I don't care about

 

[morpheon]

I meant of this thread in general, I'm more interested in science and facts than the "side stuff" which I don't care about

Then the overal question is: is it possible to have a Phelsuma Madagascariensis live with a Furcifer Pardalis without any of them hurting in any way the other. This also includes stress and immune problems.


EDIT: I'd also add: if they can live together, HOW can they live together in a safe way?

 

[FFSTRescue]

I see what your study is, but what is the hypothesis? What do you hypothesize is going to happen?

 

[Monkeykungphu]

EDIT: I'd also add: if they can live together, HOW can they live together in a safe way?

With screen in between them of course!

 

[morpheon]

I see what your study is, but what is the hypothesis? What do you hypothesize is going to happen?

Oh Ok! I am sorry! I misunderstood your question! Thank you for asking though!

I sincerely don't know. So far, if you want my ACTUAL hypothesis, i think it is possible to make both specimens live together in a safe way with very restrictive conditions (restrictive to the breeder, not to the animals - live by the size of the enclosure, the way to introduce the animals to each other, the availability to the basking lamps, etc). However, my opinion is only based on 4 cases and i think it is not high enough so far.

At the end, this remains an hypothesis, which is NOT a theory. Therefore, i can not claim to be right (or wrong) yet.

 

[Chris Anderson]

I have a couple observations to give and then will follow them with a caveat about utilizing these and other observations as justification to attempt to duplicate them in captive environments.

First, I do not think the "in the wild, chams are usually always found solo" comment is accurate and definitely not defensible. Many of the chameleons I have found in the wild were found in close proximity to others of the same species. This association was often on a pair-wise basis and I wouldn't be surprised to see variation in this typical proximity depending on the season, but it is not uncommon to find chameleons in close proximity to each other.

Next, I have personally observed numerous Furcifer pardalis living in close proximity to adult Phelsuma madagascariensis grandis while I was in Madagascar. I have photos of the two next to each other and never saw any indication that the two did not coexist peacefully, at least when the gecko was an adult (this species gets fairly large). In all cases, the chameleon paid little to no attention to the gecko and visa versa.

Now, with that said, I think the important thing to note is that captivity is not the wild and utilizing observations made in the wild as justification to attempt particular husbandry practices is often a bad idea. Ultimately in a cage, the interactions between individuals (whether they are the same sex and/or species, or not) is going to be extremely different than those interactions seen in the wild. In captivity we constrain their behavior and their ability to respond to and avoid each other in ways that will alter their interactions. In doing so, stress and even fatal interactions can occur, even between individuals, sexes, or species that may have interacted fine in an unconfined, natural environment.

Ultimately, I would not recommend attempting to keep F. pardalis and P. m. grandis as cohabitants in captivity for a number of reasons. First, there is the chance of the chameleon eating the gecko. Secondly, some chameleons might be stressed by the presence of a large gecko in the same enclosure, although I tend to think many wouldn't be to bothered by it based on the behavior of these geckos. Finally, I don't think a chameleon cage set up for a panther chameleon is an enclosure that would allow appropriate appreciation of the gecko.

Chris

 

[morpheon]

Thank you for your post Chris. I will take some time about considering everything you have written!

IF I ever try this experience, i'll make sure that both animals will be in a big enough enclosure (something much bigger than most people have... i prefer to have bigger than smaller!). This way, it should be less restrictive for both of them to behave like in the wild (at least in my hopes).

However, you're making a good point when you say that a chameleon cage set up for a panther chameleon is an enclosure that wouldn't allow appropriate appreciation of the gecko. This is something i will have to keep thinking!

If you want to post any pictures or tell us more about what you think Chris, it will be greatly appreciated. The more i know, the better will be my decision!

 

[VeiledOwner87]

ok i applogize ive never read anything like that before about coexisting. but i do not applogize for what i said because i didnt call you stupid. and judging how you took both mine and julirs comments, you seem to take things a little to personal. chris said it well. captivity is not the wild, and imo it would be a stupid move, and like i said there are potential risks and dangers. maybe not physically, but health wise. if almost all say to steer away from keeping chams together, then the why question for me is, why would you want to see if it would work (for you") with two different species of reptile. coexist in captivity will never be identical

 

[FFSTRescue]

...However, my opinion is only based on 4 cases and i think it is not high enough so far.

I think you will have better luck on other forums such as faunaclassifieds.com, reptileforums.com, etc, as probably not many people on this site will have mixed species in the same enclosure. If you do go on different forums, out of personal curiosity, let us know what people have seen or done.

 

[morpheon]

if almost all say to steer away from keeping chams together, then the why question for me is, why would you want to see if it would work (for you") with two different species of reptile. coexist in captivity will never be identical

This question is logical and worth answering it in my opinion. I believe that the chameleon world is full of undiscussed and unrevised subjects. They are just taken for granted without proper documentation. Sadly, i think some of them should be reconsidered and revised. As you may have noticed already, i am all for science, and questionning actual theories is something that has to be done (not everything, nor for any reason of course).

Some of the subjects that i think should be revised are indeed chameleon cohabitation (this may not be very common here, but in France you can find people with up to 20 males kept together in a free-ranged room, while i know a few others who keep from 5 to 10 chameleons of the same sex). Another subject would be glass enclosures. Another one is the utility of humidity in chameleon husbandry.

On a side note, i think that the subject of supplementation is being revised at the moment. For a while, people thought it was NECESSARY to supplement animals. Now, some serious breeders are only gutloading their insects and they seems to be doing fine. Of course, it is too early to get some conclusions.


The roots of this revising of theories is that i believe some of them MAY be false. But to know the truth, we have to do and redo and reredo the same research to lower the chance of adopting a false theory. Then again, some of the actual theories will most likely remain founded, but some may not!

 

[morpheon]

I think you will have better luck on other forums such as faunaclassifieds.com, reptileforums.com, etc, as probably not many people on this site will have mixed species in the same enclosure. If you do go on different forums, out of personal curiosity, let us know what people have seen or done.

I have never heard of these forums before. Would you please tell me more in private please? I think this could be a good idea.

 

[PedroANDAshley]

If a cham is capable of doing this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9c3O4QZwqY (disturbing content inside) D:

I think a cham would eat anything :x