Cohabitation of a chameleon and a Phelsuma

[morpheon]

Then please, tell me where you found these stories about Phelsumas and chameleons living together!!

 

[Ace]

I don't want to get into a discussion on existentialism. I had a friend who majored in philosophy and who I constantly egged on into (friendly) debate and would say something along the lines of "overthinking is good sometimes but it doesn't get anything done."

Ask yourself this: If you had a cold and a medication were proven to be deadly and harmful some unknown number of times vs. 3 times it was known not to be harmful, would you take it?

I wouldn't.

Since quoting seems to make you so touchy "I just believe that you are NOBODY to judge if your point of view is better than mine, just like I am NOBODY to judge if yours is better than mine. Therefore, since i can not judge who has the best point of view, the only thing i can do is consider everyone's point of view, and try my best to have the most complete point of view i can have. Tell me Teresa, do you have the capacity to judge if someone's point of view is right or wrong? After all, a point of view is by definition not scientific, but rather personal."

I'm picturing the last time my son had a tantrum and said that I was wrong and his punishment was too severe. He insisted it was too severe. I said "I'm sorry you feel that way." He said "But I KNOW it's too severe!" I put him on time out for an hour. Sometimes one person does get to judge while the other doesn't. Obviously, in this case you are free to do what you want. All I'm saying is that some opinions are correct and some are incorrect. Some are right and some are wrong. A point of view is often based on more than just "personal" ideas. It can be based on experinece, knowledge, etc. All these things are not the same person to person.

Hello,

just want to say that your input is valid, but too a certain point. You claim things are what they are, nothing more nothing less, but that is not always the case. In my "point of view" you seem to feel the need that there is a "right answer" to the question or perhaps every question in the matter. But this type of debate and discussiom will go for eternity, as long as we are human. Basically "truth vs. reality", butt i guess you might think my "point of view" is too "up in the air" to consider as "what is, and what isn't" and thats okay, becasue we need to think that way in our aspects of our lives. I am not typing to disagree, but to hopefully consider, another way of thinking.

 

[KingJulien]

Then please, tell me where you found these stories about Phelsumas and chameleons living together!!

I'm sorry is that directed at me? I guess you are responding without bothering to read what I have written.

 

[JaxyGirl]

Hello,

just want to say that your input is valid, but too a certain point. You claim things are what they are, nothing more nothing less, but that is not always the case. In my "point of view" you seem to feel the need that there is a "right answer" to the question or perhaps every question in the matter. But this type of debate and discussiom will go for eternity, as long as we are human. Basically "truth vs. reality", butt i guess you might think my "point of view" is too "up in the air" to consider as "what is, ehat isn't" and that okay, becasue we need to think that way in our aspects of our lives. I am not typing to disagree, but to hopefully consider, another way of thinking.

Oh no...please don't say it will go on for eternity...actually I think it's already past eternity but, I must say that it is pretty entertaining

 

[KingJulien]

Hello,

just want to say that your input is valid, but too a certain point. You claim things are what they are, nothing more nothing less, but that is not always the case. In my "point of view" you seem to feel the need that there is a "right answer" to the question or perhaps every question in the matter. But this type of debate and discussiom will go for eternity, as long as we are human. Basically "truth vs. reality", butt i guess you might think my "point of view" is too "up in the air" to consider as "what is, ehat isn't" and that okay, becasue we need to think that way in our aspects of our lives. I am not typing to disagree, but to hopefully consider, another way of thinking.

I think you misunderstand, or maybe I was too vague. I am not saying that there is a certain final answer in this situation, I am saying that he had not answered my argument and that the whole "my opinion is as valuable as yours and hers and anyone's" argument is false. Not to say that anyone in particular is always right, but as I said before, a surgeon knows more about surgery than the anesthetist. A police officer knows more about the penal code than a newscaster.

 

[Ace]

Wow, even though this thread has been somewhat interesting and rather long. It is however getting overly deep and redundant. There comes a point when people need to agree to disagree and move on.

I Agree!!!!!

wait a minute....i disagree, no that not right

I agree to agree to Jaxygirl, about the disagreeing agreeing conflict to agree of disagreeing......

thats better!!!!

 

[morpheon]

Indeed it is directed at you Teresa. If you have any stories that i could read about Phelsumas and chameleons cohabitating together, i would love to read them.

I am not replying to the rest as it could go forever, and i think it's time for me to stop arguying over and over. You have your right to believe i am wrong, and i have the right to not share the same point of view. My main concern is now to find data of true stories that can help me more. So please, since you said that "some unknown number of times" have proven that my project is deadly, i would like to read at least a few!

 

[KingJulien]

Indeed it is directed at you Teresa. If you have any stories that i could read about Phelsumas and chameleons cohabitating together, i would love to read them.

I am not replying to the rest as it could go forever, and i think it's time for me to stop arguying over and over. You have your right to believe i am wrong, and i have the right to not share the same point of view. My main concern is now to find data of true stories that can help me more. So please, since you said that "some unknown number of times" have proven that my project is deadly, i would like to read at least a few!

That's why I said it was unknown. But thanks for trying to put words into my mouth.

 

[Ace]

I think you misunderstand, or maybe I was too vague. I am not saying that there is a certain final answer in this situation, I am saying that he had not answered my argument and that the whole "my opinion is as valuable as yours and hers and anyone's" argument is false. Not to say that anyone in particular is always right, but as I said before, a surgeon knows more about surgery than the anesthetist. A police officer knows more about the penal code than a newscaster.

that is what society whats us to believe...

now in the practical sense, yes that is true, but if possibilities are open, your next door neighbor could well have the skills and knowlegde as a proffesional surgeon than even the real surgeon, but i am streching myself thin
i see your point.

 

[JaxyGirl]

I Agree!!!!!

wait a minute....i disagree, no that not right

I agree to agree to Jaxygirl, about the disagreeing agreeing conflict to agree of disagreeing......

thats better!!!!

Hahahahah!!! That's all I have to say on the subject and I will say no more

 

[morpheon]

So Teresa you have written all that without actually having read a single story including a phelsuma cohabitating with a chameleon??

 

[KingJulien]

that is what society whats us to believe...

Ha! good one, that's the first thing in this thread that made me smile.

 

[KingJulien]

So Teresa you have written all that without actually having read a single story including a phelsuma cohabitating with a chameleon??

I wrote arguments based on the logic you presented, and the things you wrote. Remember all the quotes? Weren't you paying attention?

 

[KingJulien]

(Did you guys know that posts can only be 10,000 characters long?? My initial post was 10,998 characters long haha)

Finally, i do not plan on saying that "I plan to put a chameleon and a day gecko in the same enclosure, and I realize that it may risk one or both of their lives or well being but it will entertain me so I believe the risk is worthwhile.". However, would you accept this thought: "I plan to put a chameleon and a day gecko in the same enclosure, while realizing that it may risk one or both health or well being, in order to learn more about the possibily of captive cohabitation just like it has been suggested by various datas, while doing my best to make sure that no fatal issue will be happening" ?

Of course, you will most likely wonder: "but how is he going to be able to make sure that no fatal issue will be happening??". I'd answer to that that first i plan on showing each others through some mesh a few times, to see how they react. Then, i will most likely put two enclosures in front of each other. After that, i may let the Phelsuma enter the chameleon's enclosure for a few minutes... then hours... then a day. Remove both, see how their behavior is changing... then reinsert, rince and repeat, up to possibly let both live together until death separates them. And obviously, i plan on doing the first few steps only when i will have the time to see both react to each other, in case that any agression signs would occur. Therefore, the really worst i have to fear is a bite, and not the death of one of them, because i should be able to take one of them out in a very short time. Then again, there will be no guarantee of success nor of failure, just like there is no guarantee that when you bring a chameleon to your house they will survive for a few years. That applies to wild caught animals, and even to CB chameleons as well...

As for this I don't see that much of an issue. As I said it was your logic that I disagreed with. I personally think it's a risk for very little benefit, but as they say, "it's your funeral".

 

[bugboy]

Of course, in a scientific way it won't be flawless. However, the more notes i take, the higher the chances are that people will be able to reproduce the experiment if it works.

if you REALLY decide to do this, i hope you take enough notes in the tenth of a second it takes the chameleons tongue to hit the gecko.

seriously, if you MUST have the gecko, save some money and buy an enclosure for it. you did say all of this would be happening up to a year from now. thats plenty of time to save up for the gecko and everything you would need for it.

 

[kinyonga]

I've been reading this thread and giving it a lot of thought and I still don't know what would happen if these two were put together.

I do think that whether two different species can be kept together depends on a lot of things though...habitat requirements of both need to be compatible. Temperament...aggression...stress...food requirements...position within the environment (do they both live in the trees, for example)...likelyhood of one being prey for the other...etc. Maybe even the sex of those being kept together will matter?

I did find this interesting though...
"similar in terms of body length and weight"..."It is possible that the interspecific differences in daily activity patterns may help facilitating coexistence of the two study species."...
http://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...a2149aaffd44b59b0ac319066c561227&searchtype=a

And a long thread about cohabitation....lots of pros and cons...
http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/lizards/35374-mixing-species-please-read.html

There is a little information in this site too...and it makes reference to another article...
http://www.chameleonnews.com/05OctAndersonQA.html

"when green anoles and brown anoles cohabit the same area, the brown anoles are primarily terrestrial or restrict themselves to the lower branches of bushes, while the green anoles stay higher."...
http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Polychrotidae

 

[morpheon]

if you REALLY decide to do this, i hope you take enough notes in the tenth of a second it takes the chameleons tongue to hit the gecko.

seriously, if you MUST have the gecko, save some money and buy an enclosure for it. you did say all of this would be happening up to a year from now. thats plenty of time to save up for the gecko and everything you would need for it.

If you would have taken the time to read me, and see what kind of enclosures i have, you'd soon notice that money is NOT the issue.

 

[morpheon]

Lynda: I have ALWAYS agreed that this experiment was including many many different variables, that all of the variables have the potential of being harmful for either (and maybe both) animals. If it simple, i wouldn't have spent that many hours researching, arguying, read, testing, thinking, fighting, etc!

Some of your links are interesting, thought i believe not all of them applies. So far, my favorite by far is the forum post "mixing species" by Art Gecko101. I like the fact that he opens the door for "very rare exceptions to the general rules where 2 species are relatively compatible, but before you attempt mixing species, you must 1st be armed with as much knowledge about the problems as possible". Unlike some person think, i believe it is POSSIBLE (hence not sure at all) that both can be a very rare combo that may be reproduced in the future. Also, i have been (just like you Lynda) trying to find as much knowledge on this particular subject as i can, and some people on this thread posted very interesting facts and opinions as well.

If i review the article state above, so far here is what i have found:
1) Conditions are met. Both in natural and captive conditions the Phelsuma and Pardalis would be fine.

2) Fighting and stress are to me the two main concerns of this possible experiment. This is why i plan on monitoring every single step, specially when it will be related to introducing one to the other, behind mesh (from far away, then closer...), then face to face, then into the same enclosure for a few minutes, hour, hours, day, then days... As as soon as i see any sign of anything negative, both will be removed.

3) Competition [for food] will not be a problem, as my chameleon is stricly and only fed by handfeeding. My girlfriend and I have starved our chameleon for over a week, and the cup feeding did not work, so if the Phelsuma is cup fed or handfed, there should be no problem in that matter. This also removes any problem concerning agressivity towards feeding.

4) Chemistry: both animals are from the same natural habitat, and both will be tested a few times for parasites and other sickness. Therefore, i see no possible contamination between each of them The vet will also be aware of this experiment, and her opinion will be strictly followed, especially if she says that there is any harm possible towards chemistry and physiology.

5) Habits: Both are supposed to live during the day, and sleep at night. Afterall, these phelsumas are commonly called "Day Gecko" for a reason!

6) I am aware that signs of rejection or sickness may only appear in the long term. This is why this project, if it ever starts, will be taking a good amount of my time, to make sure that even after 2 years both animals are fine. Afterall, this is pretty much what i already do with my chameleons!

7) "Mixing species should NOT be done for the conservation of space": it wont, nor for money saving!! If i wanted to save money, i wouldnt have any pet, or at least no chameleon, and only a cat!

8) "This is not a good reason to mix, as the size of enclosure that a mixed exhibit will need is far bigger than the vivariums each species would need separately" : If you take a look at my actual enclosures, you will easily see that i do not build small, AT ALL.

9) "Before you even contemplate mixing species, you need to have kept each species separately, for long enough that you can know the ins and outs of each individuals eating habits, behaviours, appearance… so that if something is wrong, you can spot it." : This will be my first thing done, and for quite a while (ie: as long as it takes). And those of you who actually REALLY know me will easily understand that they will be spammed in their message box, that i will read a lot, and will master these signs before trying anything.

 

[bugboy]

If you would have taken the time to read me, and see what kind of enclosures i have, you'd soon notice that money is NOT the issue.

i read this whole thread. and if you have the money already, then buy the thing. why are you trying so desperately to re-create something that worked for 2 or 3 people when we all know the usual outcome is a gruesome one?

 

[Ace]

i read this whole thread. and if you have the money already, then buy the thing. why are you trying so desperately to re-create something that worked for 2 or 3 people when we all know the usual outcome is a gruesome one?

Not this again...

your point is valid for precautionar measures, but if you really read the post, in only deals with two specific species to "live together" and i believe Morpheon brought up more than "2 or 3" cases about these two species with no gruesome outcome- however alot of variables appy, if the gecko was way smaller than of course it would be a meal, but i think similar sizes cancel out predator and prey factor....still its just in our nature to be curious for the sake of learning, undertssanding, and progess. Morpheon seems to want to improve the natural living of a cham. my input is just a viewpoint, nothimg i said is for certain.