Common chameleon // Male Veiled

[Forestdellic]

I know this is a ridiculous question and I probably already know the answer to this one but I figured I'll ask anyway simply to prove my girlfriend wrong.

I recently found a dehydrated common female chameleon, which are native to my country, and I took it home. Apart from the dehydration it looked like quite a healthy specimen with no visible mites, bite marks or infections. I placed it in my garden and gave it's own lemon tree where it can eat all the bugs it wants and live in a safe environment. My garden is huge, there is plenty of space and no predators at all apart from the occasional mouse.

Anyway, she's doing fine, very energetic and I spray her down which seems to be working.

This morning I found her hanging on my male veiled's enclosure and she was very spotty, brightly colored and hanging next to my male on the other side of the mesh enclosure.

I am taking the assumption that she wants to breed.

Some people suggest to breed them but I objected against it as I am sure the eggs will be infertile and it's not worth the health risks. Plus it would be counter reproductive of me to put her in such a position after taking her in to aid in hydrating her.

My girlfriend however brought up the topic that she might get egg bound from having eggs and not mating. Her side of her opinion is that she probably has eggs already and wants a male to fertilize them so mating or not she will still lay eggs.

So I have a couple of questions, just for the sake of the argument

Can these two chameleon species breed?

If so will the eggs have any chance of becoming fertile?

Will the female become egg bound from seeing a male and not mate?

As I said, I probably already know the answers to these questions but I just want to be sure. I'm a responsible chameleon keeper, I try not to do anything stupid or impose bad practices of reptile keeping.

Thank you for reading this, I appreciate your time and look forward to your responses

 

[laurie]

All questions are good, as we all have to learn.

A common chameleon and a veiled can not mate. Well they could try, but nothing would come of it. Her eggs still would not be fertile. Sorry.

 

[Wowbango]

My girlfriend however brought up the topic that she might get egg bound from having eggs and not mating. Her side of her opinion is that she probably has eggs already and wants a male to fertilize them so mating or not she will still lay eggs.

Will the female become egg bound from seeing a male and not mate?

From my understanding a Female is going to have eggs, period. Regardless of whether she mates or not. So a laying bin should be provided anyways. She will only become egg-bound if she cannot lay her eggs.

 

[Trace]

Wasn’t there an unintentional Chamaeleo gracilis and Ch. calyptratus hydrid clutch a few years ago? I’d assume that the Chamaeleo chamaeleon would produce viable offspring with the Ch. calyptratus because they are the same genus. On top of that the Ch. calyptratus and Ch. arabicus are known to hybridize as well as jacksonii xantholophus with jacksonii jacksonii. Chris andersonii can explain or deny this theory far better than myself.

That being said, I wouldn’t recommend these crosses be intentionally produced. The female could be injured by the male, unable to lay to clutch etc. If the clutch is viable and survives, they certainly can’t go back into the wild.

There has got to be a male Ch. chamaeleon nearby that wouldn’t mind to visit the Lemon tree for a few days.

 

[Chris Anderson]

As Trace said, there are known isolated examples of chameleons hybridizing within their genus. Its possible this pairing would work fine, but I would still advise against it. As mentioned, the female will not become egg bound simply because she didn't breed.

Chris

 

[kinyonga]

If it's an adult female it could be possible for her to be carrying sperm if she met a male in the last year so it wouldn't hurt to put a bin of sand in her cage so she has a place to lay eggs if she needs to. This is the normal breeding season and they do/can produce a clutch the year following a mating from retained sperm.

 

[Forestdellic]

If it's an adult female it could be possible for her to be carrying sperm if she met a male in the last year so it wouldn't hurt to put a bin of sand in her cage so she has a place to lay eggs if she needs to. This is the normal breeding season and they do/can produce a clutch the year following a mating from retained sperm.

As I said in my first post she is in my garden. I do not keep wild specimens in cages. She has the whole garden as her lay box so she can lay where ever she wants hehe

You bring up a good point Trace. It did not come to mind that these two are from the same genus. For now I am reluctant to experiment. The male is fairly young so I do not believe he would do any possible damage. The damage I am worried about is internal and as you said she might not be able to lay the eggs.

I will try and hybrid breed them, maybe next year, once I have a good amount of females to experiment with but for now its best to keep this little girl out of trouble.

I am on a look out for a male and if I manage to find one this summer I'll bring him to the lemon tree

Thank you all for the responses this has been very helpful

 

[GCash]

As I said in my first post she is in my garden. I do not keep wild specimens in cages. She has the whole garden as her lay box so she can lay where ever she wants hehe

You bring up a good point Trace. It did not come to mind that these two are from the same genus. For now I am reluctant to experiment. The male is fairly young so I do not believe he would do any possible damage. The damage I am worried about is internal and as you said she might not be able to lay the eggs.

I will try and hybrid breed them, maybe next year, once I have a good amount of females to experiment with but for now its best to keep this little girl out of trouble.

I am on a look out for a male and if I manage to find one this summer I'll bring him to the lemon tree

Thank you all for the responses this has been very helpful

It never ceases to amaze me when people come on here to ask a question/advice, get a response from very credible members and then turn around and say they're going to do the exact opposite of what was recommended by well respected keepers. What do you plan to gain by hybridizing the two species? Are you going to make one or both of the species stronger? Not likely. If you're not keeping the wild female caged, are you planning to corrupt the local gene pool by breeding your male veiled to a wild female and leaving her and the offspring(and future offspring from retained sperm and etc.) free to mingle within the local population? If it was a case that the two species' natural range overlapped and they were able to produce an intermediate, so be it. At least then they would occur in the naturally appropriate location. I personally feel it is not our place as keepers to tamper with such endeavors for they have a ripple effect that most keepers wanting to do this type of thing haven't thought about and understand.

Please consider maintaining the genetic integrity of the indigenous populations of chameleons that have existed there since way before humans ever did.

 

[shrum]

It never ceases to amaze me when people come on here to ask a question/advice, get a response from very credible members and then turn around and say they're going to do the exact opposite of what was recommended by well respected keepers. What do you plan to gain by hybridizing the two species? Are you going to make one or both of the species stronger? Not likely. If you're not keeping the wild female caged, are you planning to corrupt the local gene pool by breeding your male veiled to a wild female and leaving her and the offspring(and future offspring from retained sperm and etc.) free to mingle within the local population? If it was a case that the two species' natural range overlapped and they were able to produce an intermediate, so be it. At least then they would occur in the naturally appropriate location. I personally feel it is not our place as keepers to tamper with such endeavors for they have a ripple effect that most keepers wanting to do this type of thing haven't thought about and understand.

Please consider maintaining the genetic integrity of the indigenous populations of chameleons that have existed there since way before humans ever did.

I would like to start off by saying I agree 100% with everything you are saying. With that said why do we see mixes on these boards at all? Are some ok and some not? I see mixed locals of panthers all the time and from sponsored breeders....are those ok? I personal do not think they are but I guess my point is should this not be an all or nothing type topic? I mean who are we to play god and start mixing animals because we think it would look cool.

 

[johnnyev]

It never ceases to amaze me when people come on here to ask a question/advice, get a response from very credible members and then turn around and say they're going to do the exact opposite of what was recommended by well respected keepers. What do you plan to gain by hybridizing the two species? Are you going to make one or both of the species stronger? Not likely. If you're not keeping the wild female caged, are you planning to corrupt the local gene pool by breeding your male veiled to a wild female and leaving her and the offspring(and future offspring from retained sperm and etc.) free to mingle within the local population? If it was a case that the two species' natural range overlapped and they were able to produce an intermediate, so be it. At least then they would occur in the naturally appropriate location. I personally feel it is not our place as keepers to tamper with such endeavors for they have a ripple effect that most keepers wanting to do this type of thing haven't thought about and understand.

Please consider maintaining the genetic integrity of the indigenous populations of chameleons that have existed there since way before humans ever did.

Agree!!
If you want a mongrel... please get a dog,

 

[Trace]

I would like to start off by saying I agree 100% with everything you are saying. With that said why do we see mixes on these boards at all? Are some ok and some not? I see mixed locals of panthers all the time and from sponsored breeders....are those ok? I personal do not think they are but I guess my point is should this not be an all or nothing type topic? I mean who are we to play god and start mixing animals because we think it would look cool.

Panther Chameleons are technically (yes I’ve read the paper that they may not be) the same species so one isn’t ‘playing god’ by breeding two different locales.

We don’t see mixing of different species (unless by accident in the case I mentioned) because in most situations it is not possible genetically. Sorry there will never be a Veiled + Jacksons hybrid.

We haven’t perfected breeding most species of chameleons in captivity let alone introducing some silly hybrids. Let’s work on the former first!

 

[Forestdellic]

First of all it's not to be cool. It's more a curiosity on the outcome of the two mixes while we're exploring the subject. Secondly, I take what credible members on here seriously. I didn't say I am definitely mixing the two together, perhaps I mispoke on what I meant which is its worth giving the idea some thought.

But for the record my garden is an enclosed area by sandstone walls on all four fronts. The walls are high, some over 50ft. The lowest side of the wall is about 40f and there are no trees planted nearby that touch that wall so climbing over it would be difficult for the female or it's offspring. It gets natural sunlight by first illuminating the first half of the garden and gradually illuminating over the other half as the sun sets westard. The lemon tree is on this half. If the female had to have children of mix breeds in my garden there would be little chance of them mingling with local species.

I do not aim to corrupt the local species and its gene pool. I'm just curious on the outcome. As an idea.

Again this is just speculation. I think it would be an interesting outcome but then again is it worth it? Probably not.

 

[Forestdellic]

Panther Chameleons are technically (yes I’ve read the paper that they may not be) the same species so one isn’t ‘playing god’ by breeding two different locales.

We don’t see mixing of different species (unless by accident in the case I mentioned) because in most situations it is not possible genetically. Sorry there will never be a Veiled + Jacksons hybrid.

We haven’t perfected breeding most species of chameleons in captivity let alone introducing some silly hybrids. Let’s work on the former first!

Yes I believe getting her a male, of the same species would benefit her more.

 

[shrum]

Panther Chameleons are technically (yes I’ve read the paper that they may not be) the same species so one isn’t ‘playing god’ by breeding two different locales.

We don’t see mixing of different species (unless by accident in the case I mentioned) because in most situations it is not possible genetically. Sorry there will never be a Veiled + Jacksons hybrid.

We haven’t perfected breeding most species of chameleons in captivity let alone introducing some silly hybrids. Let’s work on the former first!

Agreed and thank you for answering my question

 

[Carlton]

First of all it's not to be cool. It's more a curiosity on the outcome of the two mixes while we're exploring the subject. Secondly, I take what credible members on here seriously. I didn't say I am definitely mixing the two together, perhaps I mispoke on what I meant which is its worth giving the idea some thought.

But for the record my garden is an enclosed area by sandstone walls on all four fronts. The walls are high, some over 50ft. The lowest side of the wall is about 40f and there are no trees planted nearby that touch that wall so climbing over it would be difficult for the female or it's offspring. It gets natural sunlight by first illuminating the first half of the garden and gradually illuminating over the other half as the sun sets westard. The lemon tree is on this half. If the female had to have children of mix breeds in my garden there would be little chance of them mingling with local species.

I do not aim to corrupt the local species and its gene pool. I'm just curious on the outcome. As an idea.

Again this is just speculation. I think it would be an interesting outcome but then again is it worth it? Probably not.

Curiosity isn't wrong. If there were no risks to the chams that's a different story. There are times when deliberately hybridizing a species may be warranted (trying to preserve a critically endangered species through genetic manipulation), but presenting two different species to each other just to see what happens isn't. You don't know if they would even recognize each other's visual cues to back off, if they will end up fighting, injuring each other, whether the female might be gravid with infertile eggs already (and could be more vulnerable to injury by mating attempts). As they are probably not species that would naturally overlap at all, why subject them to the stress of strange intruders?

 

[GCash]

I would like to start off by saying I agree 100% with everything you are saying. With that said why do we see mixes on these boards at all? Are some ok and some not? I see mixed locals of panthers all the time and from sponsored breeders....are those ok? I personal do not think they are but I guess my point is should this not be an all or nothing type topic? I mean who are we to play god and start mixing animals because we think it would look cool.

Got interrupted so sorry if this may be a little behind in the conversation.

This one hit me pretty hard with the circumstance of the female being wild and free. Its one thing to have crosses in captive populations, introducing feral genetics into the wild is another story altogether. Personally I believe crossing even in captivity muddies the captive population and just makes it harder to keep track of what's what with any certainty. I guess it all comes down to whether one wants to marvel at what nature has to offer or nurture the ego that feeds on doing something "cool that no one's ever done before". Just my opinion and we all have one.

 

[GCash]

First of all it's not to be cool. It's more a curiosity on the outcome of the two mixes while we're exploring the subject. Secondly, I take what credible members on here seriously. I didn't say I am definitely mixing the two together, perhaps I mispoke on what I meant which is its worth giving the idea some thought.

But for the record my garden is an enclosed area by sandstone walls on all four fronts. The walls are high, some over 50ft. The lowest side of the wall is about 40f and there are no trees planted nearby that touch that wall so climbing over it would be difficult for the female or it's offspring. It gets natural sunlight by first illuminating the first half of the garden and gradually illuminating over the other half as the sun sets westard. The lemon tree is on this half. If the female had to have children of mix breeds in my garden there would be little chance of them mingling with local species.

I do not aim to corrupt the local species and its gene pool. I'm just curious on the outcome. As an idea.

Again this is just speculation. I think it would be an interesting outcome but then again is it worth it? Probably not.

You don't have to look too deeply to learn the lesson that "nature finds a way". Don't underestimate it.

 

[Forestdellic]

Curiosity isn't wrong. If there were no risks to the chams that's a different story. There are times when deliberately hybridizing a species may be warranted (trying to preserve a critically endangered species through genetic manipulation), but presenting two different species to each other just to see what happens isn't. You don't know if they would even recognize each other's visual cues to back off, if they will end up fighting, injuring each other, whether the female might be gravid with infertile eggs already (and could be more vulnerable to injury by mating attempts). As they are probably not species that would naturally overlap at all, why subject them to the stress of strange intruders?

Unfortunately there is no 100% guarantee that the chams won't be subjected to harm. Harm occurs in breeding members of the same species, let alone different. I was merely exploring the subject as an idea, nothing definite. You all bring up good factors on what could come into affect, hence why I opened up on such a matter in order to gain an in-depth perspective on whether the theoretical experimental hybridization would be worth a shot.

I know in the past and present, hybridization is mainly used as a bank to preserve genetics of a dying species. Thankfully this doesn't seem to be the case in my local species.

I guess it all comes down to whether one wants to marvel at what nature has to offer or nurture the ego that feeds on doing something "cool that no one's ever done before".

To be honest, it is a bit of both. I'm human, sue me, anybody on here would gulp at the chance to do something no one has ever done before but I am also a very curious fellow and would love to experiment to see on how much nature can really produce.

On top I am first and foremost conscious, aware and responsible. Weighing out the facts before plunging into such a curiosity is what defines a purposeful endeavor.

I do have the means, the facilities and the time to cater to such but I do have morals and taking into consideration the different variables that would play out as well as Trace's point, efforts would be useful and more appreciative on perfecting genetical breeds of the same species rather than start mixing and matching.

I've got better plans for my local species. As of now I am working with my local rehabilitation centre to start a program in taking in sick/dehydrated wild local specimens, as well as educating the public on how they can help when they find a chameleon in their garden in hopes to boost up their health as there are too many incidents where wild chameleons are picked up and thrown in a glass tank as a pet. Right now I am working on a series of mesh cages in order to temporarily hold wild sick specimens to be healed and monitored before returning to the wild.

 

[kinyonga]

IMHO...Much better idea to help the species than to worry about cross breeding them.

 

[norcalsteel]

although I wouldn't cross breed I don't see a problem with it in a captive bred program. Snakes are done the same way. If your trying to get certain traits there is nothing wrong with cross breeding for pets. Boxers, Doberman etc are all mixed dogs to create a new breed. I would however never want to see wild species contaminated. If you go by the argument of never cross breeding do you live in a all white community?