Conflicting hydration info

[Action Jackson]

Why do you think there is such a disparity in observation between what you are seeing and all those people doing podcasts and live sessions?

I don’t know. As I said none of my chameleons run from the misters or show any distress from being misted.

 

[crosscutts]

I see and hear the conversations about hydration and fogging all the time on the internet, live feeds and podcasts. I very rarely comment and usually click off because I don’t usually agree with what’s being said.

I’m very lucky to live in a place where humidity and temperatures are just about ideal year round for keeping chameleons. I have housed chameleons outdoors extensively for many years and also spent quite a few nights hiking in the rainforests of Madagascar.

High humidity at night with cool temperatures is a good thing, no doubt about it. Obviously it’s not an easy thing for most keepers to achieve due to the environment and area they live in.

Using a fogger at night helps keep humidity high and keeps your chameleon from losing moisture from breathing dry air. That said, having a cage filled with dense fog is not natural. From what I’ve seen, fog does not occur like that in the wild or if it does, it happens rarely and seasonally and depends on weather conditions. Also fog in the wild isn’t made up of such fine water particles from what I’ve seen. If you fill your cage with dense fog and droplets form on your chameleons head and roll down to its mouth, it will drink. People who say they only fog and their chameleons never drink during the day are probably fogging heavily at night and this may be what’s happening.

Typically on very humid nights in the rainforest it’s heavy mist like a drizzle. Water droplets form on the chameleons heads and they drink the droplets that roll down to their mouths. This certainly doesn’t happen every night. You can have high humidity in the wild at night without fog or mist which in my experience is how most nights are in the summer rainy season.

I have a lot of chameleons and all the species I keep are from rainforest habitats, usually at higher elevations. These higher elevations seem to have more misty/foggy nights than lower elevations where chameleons like Panthers live.

I personally don’t use foggers although I have in the past. I have automatic misting systems and all my chameleons get misted. Although I often hear people say “chameleons don’t like to get misted” none of my chameleons show any signs that it bothers them and in fact many of them move into the mist and seem to enjoy it. Chameleons in the wild (depending on where they live) get rained on fairly frequently depending on weather patterns and the seasons. From what I’ve seen, they don’t mind the rain at all and I’ve observed them drinking during the rain as one would expect.

Chameleon do drink standing water. I’m not sure I’d offer standing water to my chameleons but if it works….

I agree with you . And being one of my longtime mentors and one of your biggest fans, I have a high level of respect for your abilities . So I don’t want to come across in anyway condescending . I feel your observations from the rainforest to the coast of California has helped your perception of fog and hydration at the level Some of us will never understand unless we experience it. But there are those of us who don’t have the luxury. of coastal humidity and the amazing experience visiting a bucket list, place for all Chamaeleon enthusiast , when our situation though it may not replicate what happens in the world of Madagascar does Shirley happens on the coast of California. We’re dense fog comes in for days at a time. Not much different than the dense fog in your habitat. I drive into the coastal range for work and I find the conditions not much different than with the man-made foggers precure , but I live well outside of it, where my humidity levels are almost to low to register . Also in keeping animals hydrated during the day and trying to keep from a completely saturated environment in my situation. It is imperative that the majority of hydration levels happened throughout the night early morning and early evening. The other advantage of the heavy fogging. Is water waste it does cut down on the levels of water usage. So is heavy fogging consistent with what’s going on in nature ? The consistency of that I agree with is not on a habitual basis . Then you have to ask yourself do I try to stick with nature and risk dehydration , as well as 30 to 40 gallons of water running through your system a week or do we supplement evenings with fog and cut back watering and a have possibly over hydrating at night . But dehydrating during the day. Just my thoughts on it correlating to the area I live . But as you say it seems to be working very well for me in my situation .And I am very very happy with the invention that has helps with this the ultrasonic misters . Thank you so much for your added information and insight.

 

[Action Jackson]

I don’t know. As I said none of my chameleons run from the misters or any distress from being misted.

I agree with you . And being one of my longtime mentors and one of your biggest fans, I have a high level of respect for your abilities . So I don’t want to come across in anyway condescending . I feel your observations from the rainforest to the coast of California has helped your perception of fog and hydration at the level Some of us will never understand unless we experience it. But there are those of us who don’t have the luxury. of coastal humidity and the amazing experience visiting a bucket list, place for all Chamaeleon enthusiast , when our situation though it may not replicate what happens in the world of Madagascar does Shirley happens on the coast of California. We’re dense fog comes in for days at a time. Not much different than the dense fog in your habitat. I drive into the coastal range for work and I find the conditions not much different than with the man-made foggers precure , but I live well outside of it, where my humidity levels are almost to low to register . Also in keeping animals hydrated during the day and trying to keep from a completely saturated environment in my situation. It is imperative that the majority of hydration levels happened throughout the night early morning and early evening. The other advantage of the heavy fogging. Is water waste it does cut down on the levels of water usage. So is heavy fogging consistent with what’s going on in nature ? The consistency of that I agree with is not on a habitual basis . Then you have to ask yourself do I try to stick with nature and risk dehydration , as well as 30 to 40 gallons of water running through your system a week or do we supplement evenings with fog and cut back watering and a have possibly over hydrating at night . But dehydrating during the day. Just my thoughts on it correlating to the area I live . But as you say it seems to be working very well for me in my situation .And I am very very happy with the invention that has helps with this the ultrasonic misters . Thank you so much for your added information and insight.

Thanks as usual for the kind comments. I understand what you are doing is working well for you. The habitats that Parson’s come from experience heavy rainfall. In my opinion they are getting their primary hydration from drinking during this time.

It’s true it gets foggy in the wild but as I said, from what I’ve seen it’s nowhere near as dense or contains such fine water particles.

In my option filling a cage with dense fog is on the extreme opposite of providing standing water for a chameleon to drink out of. Both will get the job done but neither is probably a common occurrence in the wild as much as drinking when it rains.

Bill, if you read this I just want to say I think you are doing a great job with the information you put out and I like your open mindedness and not forming firm opinions on things we most likely don’t have all the information about, which with chameleons is pretty much everything

 

[crosscutts]

I think the biggest reason for conflicting information is conflicting zones . Sometimes the information comes across as that’s the only way to do it. But it’s really relative to the area and conditions that the animal lives in in the first place. If you’re able to achieve humidity levels. That are relative to what Chamaeleon needs. Your use a foggers a Mister’s may be different. Where is down south in areas like Louisiana, Florida, etc. you may actually have to do the opposite with dehumidifiers , but as you move farther west into dryer environments you will have to increase where your humidity levels come from whether it be misting or fogging or a combination of the Both only your experience will help you determine that . As far as all of the other myths that happen. We’ve all been doing this long enough. And we know the majority of the proven and unproven methods of water in your animal . We also have our own opinions, and hopefully those of us who want the community to grow, will not bicker but try to work together to understand each other thats what makes such an amazing community. Thank all of you for your contributions. I think this thread is a wealth of information.

 

[kinyonga]

@crosscutts said…”I just don’t think it’s wise to even mention it, especially with so many inexperienced keepers”…
I don’t recommend that newbies try it…That’s why I said…”BTW, just because they did it and it worked for them doesn’t mean that I think we should provide dishes/glasses/containers of water in cages for them…I just wanted to clarify that they do recognize standing water.”…some do recognize it, and I’m not one for not putting the truth out there… with the the explanation that it’s still not recommended. I respect that your experience has been different than mine too BTW.

 

[DeremensisBlue]

I don’t know. As I said none of my chameleons run from the misters or show any distress from being misted.

Well, this is worth unpacking a little bit. Since chameleons not liking being sprayed with water has been something that has been a staple of my experience for my entire time working with chameleons it would be worth figuring out why you have never encountered it in your entire time working with chameleons.

A possibility is that it isn’t that chameleons are afraid or annoyed by water as much as they, like any animal, don’t like to being suddenly sprayed with pressurized water. And the observation will change depending on how the water is delivered. If I have a panther chameleon who has been in a 2’x2’x4’ Reptibreeze with the basking light on 12 hours a day and a Mist King nozzle goes off in the afternoon 12” from his face, or even just warm body, it is not a function of whether they like water or not. He is being shocked with a blast of water and will react. If he is dehydrated he will soon run back to drink up, but that first initial reaction is still something to take into consideration. Could there be a better way?

Even going back as far as the early 2000s when I was writing articles for the Chameleon News I would be talking about how you had to keep misting until they settled in and then started cleaning out their eyes. Now, I do not say that any more because I believe their eyes were being irritated instead of them cleaning them out, but that is another debate. The point is that the way I was delivering water was not being received well, by the chameleon and they had to adjust to it. Yes, they would drink and yes they were hydrated. And if that was the end of what I cared about I would not need to continue searching for a better way to hydrate chameleons.

Now, things change when I have my parson’s in large walk-in enclosures. When I rain on them with sprinkler systems from a distance and they get a gentle rain they do not react as my panthers do when they are misted from the close range required of a 2x2x4 cage. And it is also consistent that, even in a 2x2x4 cage, misting when it is cooler (at night or in the morning) also has much less of a reaction. So sleep condition or temperature differential is a factor.

Of course, there are many people out there saying many variations on things and I cannot answer for everyone else. But, on my side, my audience is the beginner chameleon keeper. And so, if I am given a TikTok’s length of time to communicate a concept, it will be something that relates to the keeper who is keeping one of the top three species in a 2x2x4 Reptibreeze. And that would be the scenario where they are up to 1.5’ from a mister. If you give me a YouTuber’s length of time I can add a little more of the alternative scenarios. If you give me a podcaster’s amount of time I can fully explain the concepts and how to understand the underlying dynamics of what is going on with what we know, what we think, what the possibilities are, or just what the wild guesses are.

Craig, I would be interested in learning the conditions you have your chameleons in where they welcome the water. If it is different than the experiences I have listed, it would help add another perspective to my understanding of chameleon hydration.

And for anyone reading things like this where you have two conflicting statements and you are wondering which is right, most of the time both are right within different conditions and assumptions. And so you can test it on your own to see if it is true in your situation. If you turn your mister on and your panther is obviously annoyed then it is worth exploring options that will reduce the shock to your panther. If you turn your sprinklers on and your Parson's chameleon does not show displeasure and leans into it then it is not something you have to worry about. Stick with what is effective for you. And be at peace with other people having different needs for your situation.

Below is a Parson's Chameleon casually enjoying an afternoon "rainshower" with no discomfort. Yet, I still say chameleons do not like being sprayed with water because a walk-in cage with misters high above is not yet a standard scenario. I look forward to the time when I must change what I say during my quick standard guideline sound bites because this scenario has become the norm. I will gladly evolve my message with the evolution of the standard keeping conditions!

 

[kinyonga]

@DeremensisBlue said…”A possibility is that it isn’t that chameleons are afraid or annoyed by water as much as they, like any animal, don’t like to being suddenly sprayed with pressurized water. And the observation will change depending on how the water is delivered. If I have a panther chameleon who has been in a 2’x2’x4’ Reptibreeze with the basking light on 12 hours a day and a Mist King nozzle goes off in the afternoon 12” from his face, or even just warm body, it is not a function of whether they like water or not. He is being shocked with a blast of water and will react. If he is dehydrated he will soon run back to drink up, but that first initial reaction is still something to take into consideration. Could there be a better way?“…I also think it’s that they don’t like being sprayed with pressurized water….but that if the pressurized water is a very fine mist as opposed to a heavier spray it makes a difference. Try it on yourself… make the mist as fine as you possibly can and spray your face…then open the nozzle a bit so the spray is not nearly as fine and spray yourself. I think you’ll see a big difference in how you want to react.

 

[DeremensisBlue]

I also think it’s that they don’t like being sprayed with pressurized water….but that if the pressurized water is a very fine mist as opposed to a heavier spray it makes a difference. Try it on yourself… make the mist as fine as you possibly can and spray your face…then open the nozzle a bit so the spray is not nearly as fine and spray yourself. I think you’ll see a big difference in how you want to react.

Are you talking about modifying a Mist King so it has a finer mist and is easier on a chameleon? So something between a Mist King mister and a fogger?

 

[kinyonga]

Are you talking about modifying a Mist King so it has a finer mist and is easier on a chameleon? So something between a Mist King mister and a fogger?

Hadn't thought of that. I was just thinking of an experiment with a cheap hand mister so you can see the difference in reaction to a very very fine mist compared to one that is not very fine at all…and trying it with chameleons and yourself to see the reaction.

 

[DeremensisBlue]

Hadn't thought of that. I was just thinking of an experiment with a cheap hand mister so you can see the difference in reaction to a very very fine mist compared to one that is not very fine at all…and trying it with chameleons and yourself to see the reaction.

Well, my comparisons to human reactions are meant to make it easier to understand from the chameleon’s perspective. Yes, the finer the mist the less of a shock reaction. But the important thing is how a chameleon in a cage responds to the equipment being used. Presently, the equipment most commonly used is Mist King and Reptibreeze (or a fogger). I suppose we could work on something with a finer mist, but I am not sure why we would work so hard on making sure we could mist a chameleon during the day in comfort. We could do things like cool down the environment before misting, misting when it is cooler or the chameleon is sleeping, or use a fogger to provide humidity. There are many things that can be used if we can allow ourselves to let go of misting our chameleons at short range in the afternoon.
But, yes, if misting during the day is the ultimate goal then you can make it work simply by giving more space between the mist head and the perching branch where you expect the chameleon to be. And doing it after the heat lamp has been off for a while makes it work even better. You could shut the heat lamp and UVB lamp off, let the cage cool down, run the fogger a little to dampen the atmosphere, and then run the mister. This all gives your chameleon the signs that a summer rain shower is coming (or they learn soon enough what that all means). So if misting during the day is important, there are a number of ways to make it work even with a Mist King and a Reptibreeze. But explaining that would take at least a YouTube length of time.

 

[Action Jackson]

Well, this is worth unpacking a little bit. Since chameleons not liking being sprayed with water has been something that has been a staple of my experience for my entire time working with chameleons it would be worth figuring out why you have never encountered it in your entire time working with chameleons.

A possibility is that it isn’t that chameleons are afraid or annoyed by water as much as they, like any animal, don’t like to being suddenly sprayed with pressurized water. And the observation will change depending on how the water is delivered. If I have a panther chameleon who has been in a 2’x2’x4’ Reptibreeze with the basking light on 12 hours a day and a Mist King nozzle goes off in the afternoon 12” from his face, or even just warm body, it is not a function of whether they like water or not. He is being shocked with a blast of water and will react. If he is dehydrated he will soon run back to drink up, but that first initial reaction is still something to take into consideration. Could there be a better way?

Even going back as far as the early 2000s when I was writing articles for the Chameleon News I would be talking about how you had to keep misting until they settled in and then started cleaning out their eyes. Now, I do not say that any more because I believe their eyes were being irritated instead of them cleaning them out, but that is another debate. The point is that the way I was delivering water was not being received well, by the chameleon and they had to adjust to it. Yes, they would drink and yes they were hydrated. And if that was the end of what I cared about I would not need to continue searching for a better way to hydrate chameleons.

Now, things change when I have my parson’s in large walk-in enclosures. When I rain on them with sprinkler systems from a distance and they get a gentle rain they do not react as my panthers do when they are misted from the close range required of a 2x2x4 cage. And it is also consistent that, even in a 2x2x4 cage, misting when it is cooler (at night or in the morning) also has much less of a reaction. So sleep condition or temperature differential is a factor.

Of course, there are many people out there saying many variations on things and I cannot answer for everyone else. But, on my side, my audience is the beginner chameleon keeper. And so, if I am given a TikTok’s length of time to communicate a concept, it will be something that relates to the keeper who is keeping one of the top three species in a 2x2x4 Reptibreeze. And that would be the scenario where they are up to 1.5’ from a mister. If you give me a YouTuber’s length of time I can add a little more of the alternative scenarios. If you give me a podcaster’s amount of time I can fully explain the concepts and how to understand the underlying dynamics of what is going on with what we know, what we think, what the possibilities are, or just what the wild guesses are.

Craig, I would be interested in learning the conditions you have your chameleons in where they welcome the water. If it is different than the experiences I have listed, it would help add another perspective to my understanding of chameleon hydration.

And for anyone reading things like this where you have two conflicting statements and you are wondering which is right, most of the time both are right within different conditions and assumptions. And so you can test it on your own to see if it is true in your situation. If you turn your mister on and your panther is obviously annoyed then it is worth exploring options that will reduce the shock to your panther. If you turn your sprinklers on and your Parson's chameleon does not show displeasure and leans into it then it is not something you have to worry about. Stick with what is effective for you. And be at peace with other people having different needs for your situation.

Below is a Parson's Chameleon casually enjoying an afternoon "rainshower" with no discomfort. Yet, I still say chameleons do not like being sprayed with water because a walk-in cage with misters high above is not yet a standard scenario. I look forward to the time when I must change what I say during my quick standard guideline sound bites because this scenario has become the norm. I will gladly evolve my message with the evolution of the standard keeping conditions!
View attachment 340601

All valid points. I guess I wasn’t thinking of having a mister feeding a single cage and spraying at that high pressure. I would imagine the chameleons wouldn’t dig that! My pumps all feed multiple cages. Usually 20-40 cages per pump so the pressure is far less and it works very well for me. I actually think that super fine mist is also annoying to a chameleon and why they “clean their eyes” so much. I don’t see my chameleons doing that as much as when I used to have high pressure fine mist spraying them.