Correct supplements

[Beman]

It has been gradual, over months that the edema has been happening in his casque and cheeks- I took him to the vet when it first started and he said there was no reason to be concerned but now it's very prominent. I did get the T5HO fixture for him and I had x-rays done on his casque and his bone density was no issue and his grip is strong.

Ok first off I do not think your Vet really knows chameleons.... Months means fat... He is obese. This causes issues with organ function.

So time to cut him way back on feeders... 3 days a week you will feed and no more then 2 medium sized feeders each feeding.

Your supplements should be VERY lightly coated. We are not frosting cupcakes.

and no feeding him fruit and veg. They are insectivores and have issues digesting vegetation.

 

[camillethecham]

Ok first off I do not think your Vet really knows chameleons.... Months means fat... He is obese. This causes issues with organ function.

So time to cut him way back on feeders... 3 days a week you will feed and no more then 2 medium sized feeders each feeding.

Your supplements should be VERY lightly coated. We are not frosting cupcakes.

and no feeding him fruit and veg. They are insectivores and have issues digesting vegetation.

Okay thank you so much, I will cut him back. What supplements should I stick with, the Fulkers without D3 every feeding and then multivitamins every other week... or do I do the Calcium Plus twice weekly like my vet recommended?

 

[Lindasjackson]

Thank you! I will cut down on his feedings. Would you recommend 1-2 feeders 3x a week?

I’m not sure because I don’t keep veileds. My Cham is a Jackson’s. I was just saying that sometimes the bulging cheeks and casque can be attributed to a Cham being over weight but I’m not sure how much he should be eating. Did you say you feed him veggies? Really you shouldn’t because they can’t digest them well. Feed the veggies to your bugs you feed your Cham. It’s better for them.

 

[Beman]

Okay thank you so much, I will cut him back. What supplements should I stick with, the Fulkers without D3 every feeding and then multivitamins every other week... or do I do the Calcium Plus twice weekly like my vet recommended?

Well tell me this.... Did you ever get the correct UVB lighting? Can you show me the cage so I can see the lights on top and the distance to the branches below?

 

[camillethecham]

I’m not sure because I don’t keep veileds. My Cham is a Jackson’s. I was just saying that sometimes the bulging cheeks and casque can be attributed to a Cham being over weight but I’m not sure how much he should be eating. Did you say you feed him veggies? Really you shouldn’t because they can’t digest them well. Feed the veggies to your bugs you feed your Cham. It’s better for them.

Okay, thank you!

 

[Lindasjackson]

Ok, listen to Beman, she knows her stuff and has explained it all to you.

 

[camillethecham]

Well tell me this.... Did you ever get the correct UVB lighting? Can you show me the cage so I can see the lights on top and the distance to the branches below?

Yes I can when I get home- I'm at work until 8 pm. I have the T5HO Reptisun lighting for him currently

 

[ERKleRose]

What strength is the bulb (5.0 or 10.0)? Is the 10" from UVB bulb to baking branch or to the top of the cage?

 

[ERKleRose]

Okay thank you so much, I will cut him back. What supplements should I stick with, the Fulkers without D3 every feeding and then multivitamins every other week... or do I do the Calcium Plus twice weekly like my vet recommended?

Which Fluker's calcium without D3 do you have?

 

[Beman]

Yes I can when I get home- I'm at work until 8 pm. I have the T5HO Reptisun lighting for him currently

Ok please send that later so I can see... I need to know the bulb strength as well.

Per the dusting... No I would not use the repashy calcium plus... What is the multivitamin you have?

 

[jamest0o0]

Ok first off I do not think your Vet really knows chameleons.... Months means fat... He is obese. This causes issues with organ function.

So time to cut him way back on feeders... 3 days a week you will feed and no more then 2 medium sized feeders each feeding.

Your supplements should be VERY lightly coated. We are not frosting cupcakes.

and no feeding him fruit and veg. They are insectivores and have issues digesting vegetation.

I don't like your disrespectful attitude towards cupcakes, I love cupcakes and especially the frosting part.

 

[Beman]

I don't like your disrespectful attitude towards cupcakes, I love cupcakes and especially the frosting part.

 

[DocZ]

So much can be going on when animals are obese. It wreaks havoc on all of the organs, but due to being such an acceptable thing in society, we don't often realize it for the deadly medical condition it is, especially with reptiles.

Out of curiousity, I was reading that with people, hyperparathyroid(I'm no medical expert so maybe someone else can correct me if I'm off) is most common cause of high calcium, also if there's a cancerous growth in that region. Although it's much easier to overdose calcium supplements with reptiles, so it could plainly be that. You said you fed kale, IDK how much? Some say to avoid in large quantities for risk of thyroid issues in animals/people due to the goitrogens(interrupts iodine from my understanding).

Again though, the obesity needs to be addressed.

I wondered about primary hyperparathyroidism too. That and tumors account for 90% of cases of hypercalcemia in humans.
I can’t find any literature on primary hyperparathyroidism in reptiles, only secondary dietary hyperparathyroidism (MBD) and secondary renal hyperparathyroidism due to kidney dysfunction.
hypervitaminosis D can also cause hypercalcemia

looking at the Cham you have a few noticeable signs/symptoms
Hypercalcemia. Which could be related to supplements, MBD, or renal dysfunction (or something more rare)
Cask swelling. I think obesity is a reasonable cause given feeding regimen. As you mentioned, this could lead to multiple organ dysfunction. Obesity is one of the most dangerous diseases on the planet contributing to a huge variety of diseases and mortality
Deformation in the cask. While there may be other causes, MBD seems the most likely culprit

I think you need to look over husbandry in general. Supplementation needs to be dialed in. I don’t see a reason at this point to go away from a standard of calcium no D3 most feedings and a multivitamin with D3 a couple times a month, and don’t think giving more dietary D3 is a good idea since that could lead to hypervitaminosis D and more hypercalcemia. Definitely need to reduce feeding to hopefully get obesity under control. Check on lights/heat for to ensure proper endogenous D3 production. Last, take a good look at the hydration routine and status of the Cham. Dehydration could lead to acute or chronic renal failure

hope some of that helps

 

[jamest0o0]

I wondered about primary hyperparathyroidism too. That and tumors account for 90% of cases of hypercalcemia in humans.
I can’t find any literature on primary hyperparathyroidism in reptiles, only secondary dietary hyperparathyroidism (MBD) and secondary renal hyperparathyroidism due to kidney dysfunction.
hypervitaminosis D can also cause hypercalcemia

looking at the Cham you have a few noticeable signs/symptoms
Hypercalcemia. Which could be related to supplements, MBD, or renal dysfunction (or something more rare)
Cask swelling. I think obesity is a reasonable cause given feeding regimen. As you mentioned, this could lead to multiple organ dysfunction. Obesity is one of the most dangerous diseases on the planet contributing to a huge variety of diseases and mortality
Deformation in the cask. While there may be other causes, MBD seems the most likely culprit

I think you need to look over husbandry in general. Supplementation needs to be dialed in. I don’t see a reason at this point to go away from a standard of calcium no D3 most feedings and a multivitamin with D3 a couple times a month, and don’t think giving more dietary D3 is a good idea since that could lead to hypervitaminosis D and more hypercalcemia. Definitely need to reduce feeding to hopefully get obesity under control. Check on lights/heat for to ensure proper endogenous D3 production. Last, take a good look at the hydration routine and status of the Cham. Dehydration could lead to acute or chronic renal failure

hope some of that helps

You know, I was hoping you'd chime in on that. I was a little nervous I was way off what I was saying, but your post basically summed up(very well) the couple articles I was reading.

 

[DocZ]

You know, I was hoping you'd chime in on that. I was a little nervous I was way off what I was saying, but your post basically summed up(very well) the couple articles I was reading.

Nope you nailed it.
The goitrogens in kale is interesting too. I have no idea how much affect this has on thyroid function, but the thyroid is part of calcium homeostasis as well
It produces calcitonin which inhibits osteoclast function (things that break down bone to release calcium systemically) It is sort of the opposite of parathyroid hormone that stimulates osteoclast
Is this contributing here? No idea

EDIT: Thus, as mentioned earlier, don’t give your Cham any veggies

 

[kinyonga]

@DocZ said..."I can’t find any literature on primary hyperparathyroidism in reptiles, only secondary dietary hyperparathyroidism (MBD) and secondary renal hyperparathyroidism due to kidney dysfunction.
hypervitaminosis D can also cause hypercalcemia"...
I can't find any on primary either.

 

[DocZ]

@DocZ said..."I can’t find any literature on primary hyperparathyroidism in reptiles, only secondary dietary hyperparathyroidism (MBD) and secondary renal hyperparathyroidism due to kidney dysfunction.
hypervitaminosis D can also cause hypercalcemia"...
I can't find any on primary either.

If you’re not finding any, it’s probably not there

Found this in Mader’s reptile and amphibian medicine and surgery
Not sure where the parathyroid gland is in a Cham, or whether the parathyroidmegaly would be palpable

 

[kinyonga]

@DocZ said..."If you’re not finding any, it’s probably not there "...sometimes it takes me a while to get the wording right to bring up sites that don't normally pop up with the obvious words! Sometimes I just can't find it at all.

 

[DocZ]

Apparently

@DocZ said..."If you’re not finding any, it’s probably not there "...sometimes it takes me a while to get the wording right to bring up sites that don't normally pop up with the obvious words! Sometimes I just can't find it at all.

if it’s out there, I’m confident you’ll find it

found this on anatomy. Doesn’t mention the parathyroid gland, but does note that the ultimobranchial gland produces calcitonin not the thyroid in Chams
https://www.madcham.de/en/anatomie/

 

[DocZ]

And here’s the location of the parathyroid glands. They’re in the neck near the carotid arteries. They’re probably pretty tiny, so I don’t know if they’d be palpable even when enlarged. I’ll shut up, starting to tangent a little

https://watermark.silverchair.com/7...h9NWFlVcEEdQZJyMvrIIp5RmoBOiOdorFgosrVsP3gWcw