Cricket gutload: Using dog kibble?

[chrisandpugs]

Hi!
Is it O.K to use purverized high quality dog kibble as cricket gutoad? One web site suggested doing that instead of buying expensive high-quality gut-load thru the internet. However, other sites suggest it's not a good idea to use kibble and instead, either make your own homemade gut-load or buy the commerical brands off the internet. Reason why not to use kibble??

Christine

 

[wslinky]

From what I have read there is a couple reasons not to use Kibble:

1) Most dog foods use filler (ie Corn) which provide no nutritional value

2) Dog food is very high in Fat

Wish I could find the sites I got this info from, I think www.chameleonnews.com has some of this info in one of their articls.

Will

 

[kinyonga]

I think you would need to watch the source of vitamin A (it might be preformed) in kibble and also D3 levels. Maybe phosphorous too.

 

[ChameleonsTree]

I dont feel that the gutload from wild eye reptiles is expensive. It really is a very good balance for your chameleons.

 

[Jordan]

Well I guess it would depend on the actual make up of the dog food. I personally have no idea as to the actual contents of Kibbles off the top of my head. As there are many different blends of dog food there might be a more favorable one on the market. An adult dog formula or a diet blend may have more favorable contents. One that is geared to be general or for puppies probably has less favorable contents.

Finding one that has D2 over D3 would be easy. Not sure about whether they would even say how they are attempting to supplement vitamin A. The high fat content could be avoidable too.

 

[hybrid]

I dont see why its a problem.........although Id use it as a base for the gut load and then add other things into it.

Powdered egg yolk
Oatmeal
Powdered milk
Some calcium powder
Vitamin powder

There are plenty of things you can use to make really nice stuff. My girl has some sugar gliders that we have to make food for.......its called ledbeaters mix.........and they use reptile calcium and vitamin suppliments in it.......

I took some of the mix and the crickets went nuts on it. Its like cream of wheat so it will spoil after a day at room temp.

here is a link that maybe you could modify to suit your needs.......we freeze it and scoop it out ( like ice cream) as needed. I take the uneaten food out after a day.GLIDER RECIPE

 

[kinyonga]

Jordan..my main reason for mentioning to watch the ingredients in the way of D3, A, etc. was that they need to figure into the balance needed by the chameleons so that supplementing can be adjusted, IMHO.

 

[roo_71]

Dog food is for dogs, fish food is for fish, cat food is for cats, etc. etc.

I would suspect (among other things) that the dog food is high in animal protiens - which chams are not normally use to processing. Do yourself a big fat favor and get some gutload from cricketfood.com - I dont think WER is taking on new customers ... you snooze you lose I guess .

-roo

 

[Jordan]

Jordan..my main reason for mentioning to watch the ingredients in the way of D3, A, etc. was that they need to figure into the balance needed by the chameleons so that supplementing can be adjusted, IMHO.

I agree with you 100% on that. I was just trying to say if they have interest in experimenting with dog food it is not necessarily a lost cause, although, I would suspect alot of them will leave out ingredients all together.

 

[Fate X]

why is wild eye reptiles not selling WER gutload to new customers anymore?
i was just wondering.

 

[teamdrift]

dog food has chemicals in it that makes the chameleon go blind
i had a freind that swore by it then his cham went blind and the vet told him why

 

[Will Hayward]

dog food has chemicals in it that makes the chameleon go blind
i had a freind that swore by it then his cham went blind and the vet told him why

Unless you can give proof, then don't spread rumors.

 

[MWheelock]

Thanks Will,
You beat me to that post.

 

[Brad Ramsey]

Teamdrift has been offering a lot of "interesting" information lately.

-Brad

 

[Will Hayward]

Teamdrift has been offering a lot of "interesting" information lately.

-Brad

Agreed... interesting.

 

[teamdrift]

go to ( www.fda.gov/cvm/petfoods.htm) or just go feed your cham dog food
and find out how bad it really is! the ingredient you ask for as proof is
preservatives,flavorings,coloring, the chemicals/ butylated hydroxyanisol(bha)
butylated hydroxytoluene(BHT) and ethoxyquin the big reason these things dont mix well is that a chameleon and a dog dont really have the same body
chemistry, or digestive system or nerve system or circulatory system

not the same animal not the same needs

 

[Will Hayward]

Teamdrift, You should know that MWheelock, Brad R. nor myself condone using dog/cat food as a gutload. And so we obviously aren't defending it, and we obviously wont be trying it out just to try and have a chameleon go blind...

I was glad to see your response with proof, but upon visiting the linked site, I saw no information about these chemicals causing blindness. As someone who tries to enlighten others on why these cat/dog foods should not be used, it would be usefull to see some solid evidence, a document written by a doctor, a case study or etc, that I could use to link to others. It would be a strong point for not using them.

Looking forward to finding one.

 

[Jordan]

Know this is not a comment that I have a link for but will make it any way. Dog food generally contains vitamin A in high numbers. Dogs seem to be able to utilize it better. Cat food on the other hand is high in beta carotene. They seem to be unable to utilize the completed vitamin A and have been know to have associated eye problems. They can however utilize the beta carotene correctly to get their vitamin A. I would not think that high vitamin A would effect a chameleon's eye sight but would be harmful in other ways.

 

[Jason]

go to ( www.fda.gov/cvm/petfoods.htm) or just go feed your cham dog food
and find out how bad it really is! the ingredient you ask for as proof is
preservatives,flavorings,coloring, the chemicals/ butylated hydroxyanisol(bha)
butylated hydroxytoluene(BHT) and ethoxyquin the big reason these things dont mix well is that a chameleon and a dog dont really have the same body
chemistry, or digestive system or nerve system or circulatory system

not the same animal not the same needs

I really hate that I'm even getting involved here but this is a bit much, even for me.

Butylated hydroxyanisole (BHA) & butylated hydroxytoluene (BHT) are FDA approved preservatives used to preserve fats and prevent fat rancidity in foods.

There are limited findings that suggest it could contribute to carcinogenicity but there are also findings to the contrary. There are also tests underway exploring the antiviral properties of these two substances. I know of zero evidence that points to it being a cuase of blindness. If you have access to this info I'm sure that we would all love to see it. As Will pointed out, the link you posted offers no such evidence.

As many others have expressed here, dog food is NOT a gutload. A few insect breeders use dog, cat or chicken feed to raise colonies on but this is strictly a maintenance diet. All feeders that are close to being fed to your chameleons should be properly gutloaded, no dog food, cat food, fish food, etc.

 

[kinyonga]

Sorry to disagree with you Jordan, but cats cannot use beta carotene...
"Cats and mink are two species that are obligatory carnivores and they can not use carotene so they need to have vitamin A from animal sources in their ration. This is one of the reason why cats can not be fed a vegetarian diet."
http://www.provet.co.uk/petfacts/healthtips/vitamina.htm

"Cats – Process little or no enzymes that will break down the plant-produced carotenoids. Must eat preformed active Vitamin A (that is, Vitamin A that already has been converted from carotenoids to its active form by some other creature such as a mouse or rabbit). Here’s a good example of why cats are called strict carnivores . . . they need to eat some other animal in order to "borrow" its active Vitamin A!"
http://www.thepetcenter.com/imtop/catsaredif.html

"Unlike humans and dogs, cats cannot synthesize vitamin A from the carotene in plants."
http://www.vegansociety.com/html/animals/care/cats/