Cross-Breeding pics

word.....:) all you pinks and blues sit in the back of the bus...:):rolleyes:

i do like the certain traits "pure localities" hold but they are all F pardalis...i agree Joe, the pure blue "nosey" is a great example...
 
comparing breeds of dogs to locales is much closer than comparing breeding two separate species to mixing breeds of dog. Dogs are the same species from the tiniest little toy poodle right on up to great danes. They've just been bred out so many times that they look different. Veileds and panthers are to totally different species with different genera, and that's not the same as mixing breeds of dogs.

Panther crosses are pretty much the same thing as we would call a mutt. It doesn't take away from the looks of the animal or anything, just states a fact that it's a cross from two bloodlines. At the "pet trade level" it's a matter of personal preference as to whether you want an animal with a single lineage back to an area, or one that takes some of the best of all. Nothing better or worse, just different.
 
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So Pirate55 said:
comparing breeds of dogs to locales is much closer than comparing breeding two separate species to mixing breeds of dog. Dogs are the same species from the tiniest little toy poodle right on up to great danes. They've just been bred out so many times that they look different. Veileds and panthers are to totally different species with different genera, and that's not the same as mixing breeds of dogs.

Panther crosses are pretty much the same thing as we would call a mutt. It doesn't take away from the looks of the animal or anything, just states a fact that it's a cross from two bloodlines. At the "pet trade level" it's a matter of personal preference as to whether you want an animal with a single lineage back to an area, or one that takes some of the best of all. Nothing better or worse, just different.
Click to expand...

Point taken. That does make sense... Thanks for straightening out my thinking. But the comparison still bothers me... As we are comparing a Mammal found all over the world with a ton of Genetic Variation within the species, to a reptile that is only native to one failry small land mass off the coast of Africa, and where the only recorded genetic variation within the species is coloration. The morphological diversity that occurs between dog breeds is much more intense than the likes of what occurs in the color morphs of Reptiles within a given species.
 
i guess you have also take into account how long and how many generations of dogs have been bred as opposed to reptiles. I'd imagine with enough breeding, any one species could have that amount of diversity. However the problem is the number of our lifetimes it would take to get to that point.

This does bring up another topic that kinda interests me and is a question for those more experienced in chameleons that me. Are there differences other than color and patterns that consistently show up in the different panther locales? Like maybe size, crest size/shape, casque size/shape...etc. I can think of a few instances, but i've yet to see nearly enough chameleons to really determine an accurate conclusion.
 
Um... so is mixing two "types" of panthers more like mixing a golden lab with a chocolate brown labrador, or more like mixing a lab and a basset hound?
 
it's not exactly either, but if i had to pick one, i'd say the latter because there are clear differences between the locales(lab and basset). Granted, there are obvious variations within locale, but individual locales have common features.(black vs yellow lab, but it's still a lab)

But you have to remember that locale is not a breed that was linebred for thousands of years like dogs, it's a representation of chameleons that can be found in a certain area/island. The look of each locale was determined by nature, for whatever reason each area ended up with a different look. I'm not sure the factors that influenced the different colors, but i do understand that being in isolated areas promoted a uniform and often different color from other areas. It's probably why panthers from nosy be look so much different from ambilobes, and why bordering locales usually look fairly similar. There's also a human error to account for because people are collecting them and recording location, so actual locales maybe be as wide or as narrow as those doing the data recording dictate.


Sidenote~i'm startinga thread in general discussion about some of the questions/topics that have been discussed in this thread to avoid jumping way off topic here.
 
I wanted to post a reply here just to finish up my thoughts on this Canine comparison...I did not have a chance to get out the reply I wanted last night. I really enjoy thinking about and discussing this topic. I know it seems kind of silly to keep going back to this, But while you are correct about the species classification of Dogs (All domestic dogs are acutally classified as a subspecies of the Wolf), I still they are too drastically diffrerent to consider Crossed Locales the same as Crossing Dog breeds.

I hate using this as a reference as I can't provide the documented evidence, but I believe it was a Nat Geo documentary on the domestication and evolution of our Pets that I was watching, that they discussed how it was something special about Canine genetics that allows for this wide diversity. Anyone else know more about this? We have not seen nearly this amount of Diversity in Captive bred Felines. I really have a hard time believing that centuries of captive creeding F. Pardalis will result in the kind of wide variation we see in Canines. We may see some crazy looking color morphs but I think that is about it.

As far as for Panthers, I can only speak from what I have learned in my readings, I have not done in depth study, or first hand research on this, but as far as I know...There is no solid evidence that says there is any kind of physical difference between locales of F. Pardalis aside from coloration. Seperate locales will readilly mate eachother, and there is no negative side effects that can be recorded in the offspring. In my mind this a lot different from Cross breeding within a species where you have drastric genetic variation such as dogs.
 
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Here is my 80% Ambanja 20% Nosy from the Kammer's. These pics are from his younger years...now he shows sooo much more red than I ever thought he would!! He's a great little guy!!
CIMG1037.jpg


CIMG1042.jpg


CIMG0636.jpg
 
those look great. i've really started to warm up to the ambanjas.


oh yeah i agree that the dog breed is a bad analogy, but it's usually one of the easiest to explain to get the general idea across. I dont think that panthers have no where near the potential to be as diverse even if they were bred out like that for thousands of years. the comparison was just used as a general "different look same species"
 
Looks like I have a clutch mate of Spatular's Walter, shown earlier in the thread. Also 50% Ambilobe 50% Ambanja; sire Mihoatra Finoana, great grandsire Glorfindel (maternal relation) Born 7/07:
aa2.jpg

aa3.jpg

aa4.jpg


Damon
 
the idea is cross is endless IMO. I love the idea of it....but the buyer should always be warned that what they are buyin is a mix. who wouldnt want a Sambava with blue bars? haha that would be amazing !
 
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