warpdrive
Avid Member
...And you would buy from someone who didn't meet your standards?
How does some outsider who crosses panthers effect you again?
Harry
Cross-Breeding?
- Thread starter Matt1851
- Start date
...And you would buy from someone who didn't meet your standards?
How does some outsider who crosses panthers effect you again?
Harry
Julirs
New Member
Most of these site sponsors introduce wild blood all of the time. You can even find evidence of that here when some of them post pictures of the amazing animals they intend to use in their breeding programs. Yes-it lessens the risks buying from the knowledgeable people-but mistakes happen.
tkilgour
Member
Warpdrive, Julirs, and Chris all make excellent points and they all are accurate. However, I am 100% positive that the F. pardalis that I have purchased from Jim at the Chameleon Company and Vince at Screameleons were the locale I asked for. My Sambavas from Vince were 100% Sambava locale and matured to meet those expectations. They have mated and made Sambava offspring, U bars and all. I have kept females and males and had them mate with unrelated sambava mates and they inturn have made Sambava offspring. My Ambilobes from Jim have all turned out to be ideal Ambilobes and their offspring the same.
I have also purchased cheaper animals from some small breeders and paid considerably less. Just to find that these were not the locales I was after. I have also purchased animals from cheaper breeders and found the animals to be true to their locale.
I have also purchased cheaper animals from some small breeders and paid considerably less. Just to find that these were not the locales I was after. I have also purchased animals from cheaper breeders and found the animals to be true to their locale.
Chris Anderson
Dr. House of Chameleons
Because even some of the site sponsors, the best breeders in the country, have offered "pure locale" clutches before where I looked at the sire (CBB himself) and felt the animal did not meet my standard of locale purity. You may have a much better chance of getting what you pay for by using one of these breeders, but even they can have a mislabeled animal taint their clutches. As I've been saying, its easy to produce a locale hybrid but it takes a lot more work to maintain pure locale bloodlines and I think awareness of how easy it is to have a mislabeled animal enter into a breeding program is a good thing. After all, the understanding of how important it is to know you're getting a pure locale animal is part of the reason why breeders with better reputations are able to get the prices they deserve on their babies.
Chris
warpdrive
Avid Member
And they add wild stock intelligently. Not haphazardly.
Personally, if I wanted to add some new blood into my well established pure line, I would add a WC male.
The risks are too great to add a female like you did...and you are now forced to grow up the first clutch to at least the 6 month mark, if not the 9 month stage to prove purity.
If a WC female is going to be used, them you might as well breed her with a WC male and hope to make a new bloodline you can then use.
This is breeding 101 folks.
With that said, once again, no one has shown how crosses or breeders of crosses inter fear with keeping pure lines pure.
That's because un pure lines don't just accidentally make there way into pure lines.
If anything its the careless breeders who make stupid mistakes or take chances that today they don't have to take.
Let's be realistic as to what my complaint was from Chris...
He stated it is easy to introduce a non pure into a pure line.
Is that what happened to you Julirs? No.
You added an unknown pure into your line...not a cross.
Your babies happen to be a cross as a result, but you still used a pure as the mother.
You had other safer options to choose from for a female, yet you chose to take such a risk.
How again does breeding crosses or the crossed chams already out there affected your breeding project? Once again, it doesn't in any way.
You my dear, with all due respect, were able to make your mistake all on your own, so no need to blame other breeders out there for your problems.
Harry
warpdrive
Avid Member
With the way you are now wording your thoughts, I now fully agree with you.
Its why if, and only if you want to breed pure lines, there is more work invovled then what some people think...and far more money too.
Harry
Chris Anderson
Dr. House of Chameleons
Harry,
I think you may be partially misunderstanding what I mean. My main argument is that if considerable care and effort is not made, bloodlines could be polluted with locale hybrids. When I say that, I don't automatically mean the addition of an animal that is actually a hybrid themselves but rather that the resultant offspring are hybrids whether it is the result of a mislabeled but pure animal or a hybrid. I'm talking about the unintentional production of hybrid locales. This unintentional production of hybrid locales is quite easy for credible breeders or more novice individuals, alike, because there are many possible ways for it to occur.
Regarding your assertion that a reputable breeder would add WC males, not females, because of this risk, I have to again disagree with you. The maternal influence on the strength of offspring is considerable and there has long been the understanding that offspring seem to weaken over generations removed from WC animals because of some maternal influence. All the major breeders I know frequently add WC animals to their breeding groups and this is a major source of unintentional locale hybridization due to the uncertainty surrounding imported animals.
Chris
I think you may be partially misunderstanding what I mean. My main argument is that if considerable care and effort is not made, bloodlines could be polluted with locale hybrids. When I say that, I don't automatically mean the addition of an animal that is actually a hybrid themselves but rather that the resultant offspring are hybrids whether it is the result of a mislabeled but pure animal or a hybrid. I'm talking about the unintentional production of hybrid locales. This unintentional production of hybrid locales is quite easy for credible breeders or more novice individuals, alike, because there are many possible ways for it to occur.
Regarding your assertion that a reputable breeder would add WC males, not females, because of this risk, I have to again disagree with you. The maternal influence on the strength of offspring is considerable and there has long been the understanding that offspring seem to weaken over generations removed from WC animals because of some maternal influence. All the major breeders I know frequently add WC animals to their breeding groups and this is a major source of unintentional locale hybridization due to the uncertainty surrounding imported animals.
Chris
Julirs
New Member
Harry-we are trying to show the ways in which it can happen.
There is no way to know that my female is not a mix, or actually even if my male is a mix, actually. In all actuality, I was pretty "new" at Panthers when I got these, but Chris was there when I got my male and I am pretty sure that he thinks he is a pure WC. A few other well known and reputable breeders bred out of this shipment, and also got some interesting results. Again-just goes to show you how things can happen.
Texas Panther Man
New Member
Just for the record are you a breeder Warp? Because if not why are you disputing so much of the information others are volunteering to you? Do you produce hybrids? I have searched for wc females to add to my line as yet i havent purchased one. Mainly because of the fear factor involved. But wc blood is always something that is needed on occasion while breeding.
warpdrive
Avid Member
Oh dear chris,
You are now telling me things that I already know.
This is the reality that the pure breeders face.
Even the breeders understand the reality they deal with.
We agree...I don't know what else to say.
But non pure or crosses are not infiltrating the pure lines. And that was what I disagreed with.
Harry
You are now telling me things that I already know.
This is the reality that the pure breeders face.
Even the breeders understand the reality they deal with.
We agree...I don't know what else to say.
But non pure or crosses are not infiltrating the pure lines. And that was what I disagreed with.
Harry
warpdrive
Avid Member
My point is I would do things differently.
If I'm going to introduce females to my line, I would do it my way...as costly as it would be.
I would buy 3 WC females and 2 WC males.
I would then breed both males with two different lines to prove them pure, then breed them with the WC females to prove them and start new lines.
I would then breed the new line to my current lines to give any boost I need.
The cost of pure offspring from something like this don't come cheap.
Yes, unproven or crosses will happen.
They will go to a whole different market, and thus never reach back to a pure breeder.
That's how I would use WC females...what others do is none of my beeswax and I'm not going to force them to do it my way.
Harry
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sandrachameleon
Chameleon Enthusiast
so, my summary of all this is
- crosses are fine, if you like crosses or dont care about locale purity
- keeping lines "pure" isnt easy, but those who want them can ensure, with time and money, that they get them
- sometimes even the breeders with good reputations get wc animals that arent what they wanted - but because these are reputable breeders they will not sell offspring as pures without having verified this as fact
Julirs
New Member
Check back in with everyone in 4+ years when you accomplish this. Then take into consideration that your supremely pure lines will be in competition with everything else on the market price-wise.
Texas Panther Man
New Member
I know one thing warp, i want to live in your perfect world. lol Ive only been able to finad cb in the locale i want to produce at the moment. I would love to procure a wc female or two.
tkilgour
Member
I got a pure Ambilobe locale male from Fl chams. The sire was a CB Ambilobe male and the dam a WC female. This male I have looks like an Ambilobe and was sold to me as an Ambilobe. I bred him with a CB female Ambilobe from The Chameleon Company and the offspring have all been clear Ambilobe locales.
warpdrive
Avid Member
You can buy a nosy be today for $150 to $500...
They are clearly not the same animal and in two different markets.
I do agree that competition will always be in place, but we are talking about different markets.
Babies such as this would be worth it to other hobbyists and pro breeders of pure lines.
Now, for someone new like you, new to breeding, would you recommend a WC female or a proven pure unrelated female for your first pure breeding project???
Witch is cheaper in the end? Witch is simpler for the beginner to deal with?
Chris says others do it so adding a WC female that could be mislabled and happens all the time is the right way to do it....or my way.
You don't wana spend $300 on a pure panther from a proven bloodline then you're not gona be in the same market as some nobody selling $250 nosy.
They could end up selling some really nice crosses like you, but hey, what do I know, right?
Sure, your babies could have been 50% related to someone else's line, but it would have been a pure line.
Still, cute babies none the less.
But not the market you were aiming for.
The moral of the story is what not to do, even you realize it by now.
Btw, I'm personally focusing my time on quads.
Talk about your limited bloodlines to work with for the next two years.
Harry
Texas Panther Man
New Member
Iagree with much of what your saying as far as you get quality blood for big $$$. Ive learned that lesson myself, thats why im paying twice what an avg panther goes for. I want to produce the best of the best not pet quality offspring. So i agree with that, but you cant blame Juli or anyone else who accidentally gets a locale that was not labeled correctly. Thats the gamble we ALL take when we buy wc blood to help strengthen our lines. JMo
warpdrive
Avid Member
Sorry to disagree but it is a gamble you face when buying a WC female whether we like it or not.
Even chris thinks so.
There is always a risk.
That's the moral of Julirs story. She dove in blindly into the big boy pool when she could have played in the kiddie pool and still reached her goal.
She didn't have to take that risk.
But you also can't tell me that she went in so blindly that she didn't understand the risks involved.
Personally, I would rather have one of julirs's cross panthers if I was in the market for a panther.
I know the love and attention provided would help give me a great animal.
Harry
Even chris thinks so.
There is always a risk.
That's the moral of Julirs story. She dove in blindly into the big boy pool when she could have played in the kiddie pool and still reached her goal.
She didn't have to take that risk.
But you also can't tell me that she went in so blindly that she didn't understand the risks involved.
Personally, I would rather have one of julirs's cross panthers if I was in the market for a panther.
I know the love and attention provided would help give me a great animal.
Harry
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Chris Anderson
Dr. House of Chameleons
Harry - Remind me again, you've been keeping chams for barely over a year now right? In that time, how many chameleons have you ever bred? How many have you ever hatched? You sure have been repeatedly condescending in this thread for someone who has no experience at all in what they are lecturing other people on.
As I've said, there are many avenues by which hybrid locales can be inadvertently produced. This occurs at the level of top breeders all the way down to the first time keeper doing it in their bedroom. Once crossed, those resultant bloodlines can never have the influence of the introduced locale removed completely, unlike introduction of genes such as the transluscent gene in Veileds. The result is that hybrids are easy to produce, even when honestly attempting to maintain pure lines.
Regarding proving out females, most breeders continue to breed a new WC female before the first clutch hatches and is raised to mature colorations, possibly resulting in multiple clutches of locale hybrids. Most breeders do not keep the entire first clutch from every new female until they are 6-9 months old to verify the female. The large breeders have too many breeders to do that for every one of their females. They typically only keep a couple holdback males, if that. Fortunately, in most cases they were very careful about the females they added and there is not a problem. I have seen animals from top breeders turn out to be hybrids after they were sold, however. Now, if the breeder becomes aware of the issue from his buyers, they only would stay a top breeder if they fixed the problem. The problem is, however, that many of the people buying them don't know enough about the different locales to be able to tell when they do have a hybrid and go on to breed them thinking they are pure. The result is that animals do get sold as pure when they are actually not. This happens less frequently with better breeders but the experience level of the buyer may mean that they don't realize it and then go on to breed and sell them as bloodlines from well known breeder A. Thus, hybrids have inadvertently entered into a pure breeding pool.
Chris
