symphonica
New Member
Is it really recommended that superworms' heads be crushed prior to feeding them to reptiles, as they can be nasty biters?
Crushing their heads?
- Thread starter symphonica
- Start date
carol5208
Chameleon Enthusiast
reptoman
Avid Member
Large hornworms are far worse for mandibles grabbing a chameleons tongue than supers. I have only ever seen a super worm nip one of mine on the eye turret, but an adult hornworm can grab a tongue and take hold which can cause an adult chameleon to choke. For this reason I crush the mandibles of hornworms once they reach a certain size. Supers are fine the way they are.
symphonica
New Member
I'd be freaking out if I witnessed that. The person who told me this was a young vet tech who owns an iguana. She asked me if I've ever been bitten by one, to which I replied that I hadn't, and she told me that I was lucky. I asked her if we were talking about the same worm... I went home and just typed in "superworms bite" into google, and this is what I found at herpshop.com/au:
Biters. Don’t toss a raft of these guys in with your lizard regardless of size. These guys can bite. They’ll bite your lizard (and you) – especially if you overfeed. Superworms even gnaw their way out of those hard plastic cups they are sold in. They start chewing on one of the pin-sized air holes and make it large enough to wriggle out of.
and
I've bought Superworms on occasion for my hens before and they love them. I never thought much of it till tonight. One bite me. I don't mean latched onto the skin. I've had that happen before. It full on bite me. I yelled and tried to get it off by shaking my hand and finally had to pull it off and dropped it. Course, a hen grabbed it and ate it.
It left two puncture marks on my finger and drew blood.
Psychobunny
Avid Member
it is called a "wives tale" not wise! lol
"Old wives' tales originate in the oral tradition of storytelling. They were generally propagated by illiterate women, telling stories to each other or to children. The stories did not attempt to moralise, but to teach lessons and make difficult concepts like death or coming of age easy for children to understand. Also these stories are used to scare children so they don't do certain things.
These tales have often been collected by literate men, and turned into written works. Fairy tales by Basile, Perrault, and the Grimms have their roots in the oral tradition of women. These male writers took the stories from women, with their plucky, clever heroines and heroes, and turned them into morality tales for children."
From Wikipedia
And now, back to our regular thread.......
Olimpia
Biologist & Ecologist
I didn't personally debunk it, although they certainly don't scare or worry me. But in Mary Roach's new book "Gulp" she dedicates a chapter ("Dinner's Revenge") to mentioning things like these. And she talks at length about this myth and a few GI researchers did a few experiments and showed that there's no way that they can chew their way out of an animal.
symphonica
New Member
The vet tech was more concerned about them biting and injuring their tongues. Mine personally has not had a problem, yet, but I don't know if he's just been lucky this far.
Juliaf3
Established Member
Hey I'm glad someone asked this. I was going to do so myself. Someone at good ole petsmart told me that. I was like i bet that's bull hockey., but a it freaked me out none the less because I love my Cham, obviously. Just like when my mom said standing to close to the tv will make me go blind. Instantly freaked me out as a kid. Lol
fluxlizard
Avid Member
It's not just luck. I've fed many many thousands of supers over many years and they've never hurt a single one of my lizards.
People are funny critters.
If they hear a rumor from someone they trust, suddenly it is a fact. And often a rumor believed to be a fact, magically transforms into a personal experience.
I don't know how different the digestive tracts of chams and leos are, but I can't imagine them being too drastically different, and I have had a super find its way back out of one of my leos. I have since not fed supers to any of my herps.
symphonica
New Member
This vet tech was telling me about an iguana that had the inside of its mouth "attacked" by one. I'm not sure if chams are particularly resistant to supers? Maybe iguanas put them into their mouths alive, unlike the chams that crush them?
fluxlizard
Avid Member
this applies:
I've fed them to all sorts of lizards.
Your vet tech should not be feeding insects to iguanas anyway.
Regardless- it would be no problem for a healthy iguana. Iguana teeth are razor sharp. One of mine once bit my father's finger to the bone when I was a kid when he was trying to remove some poinsetta (he taught at a vet school). He claims it was the only time he's ever thrown up and been sick right after an animal bite. Don't know if it was the plant or the bite. Another adult I acquired bit a lady and she had to have surgery and nearly lost the use of her finger (that's why she asked me to take it).
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Olimpia
Biologist & Ecologist
What do you mean by "found its way out?" Vague anecdotes like these tend to scare new herp keepers.
Seriously. Reason enough not to listen to her, she obviously doesn't know anything about iguanas to begin with. And they do indeed have razor sharp teeth, I almost needed stitches for a bite last year from a small one. I've never been bitten like that by anything that small, and adult bite would have been horrific.
symphonica
New Member
As a gecko owner, I'm not sure I'm ready to dismiss this completely as a myth, yet. Information on a gecko forum states otherwise:
Superworms are aggressive, they have strong mandibles that could cause injuries to your gecko either externally (such as when they bend around to bite a gecko's eye, there have been reported injuries to the eyes by superworms), or internally, such as a gecko eating a superworm without chomping on their head, and the superworm could bite and cause injuries to a gecko's mouth, throat, or stomach. My gecko went through a horrific internal bleeding incident caused by a superworm, but she survived. She's now feeding well and bleeding has completely stopped.
With that said, we still use superworms here. But we do not feed superworms without pinching their mandibles. You don't have to kill the superworm by crunching their head. Their dangerous parts are their mandibles, you can see how it works by holding the worm with one hand, then press a finger into their mouth. They'll open up their mandibles to bite you, and you'll likely feel it so you can see how strong they are. All you have to do is to clip or crush their mandibles just a little bit so they can't bite. Then they should be completely safe to feed to your geckos.
I'm late to the thread but I feel I should chime in on the potential dangers of superworms. Here's our story..
On Jan. 16th around 1am in the morning, I fed my beautiful super giant mack snow raptor a superworm. It was really just a treat, as she usually gets dubia roaches every other day. But she was looking through the tank, looking cute, so I dropped a superworm in the tank for her.
She gobbled up the worm, didn't get to chomp on the head and just swallowed it pretty much. I was instantly worried when I saw it, so I hopped online to start researching. Every sites/posts I've read, everybody said superworms are 100% safe, that all negative things said about superworms are myth. People suggested that a gecko's stomach acid would kill it instantly if the superworm isn't already dead going in. Anybody that attempted to suggest superworms could cause injuries to geckos were instantly shot down, called liars, called names, etc.. So having read that, I went to sleep feeling a bit better.
Next day everything carried on as usual. I noticed seeing her out and about a couple of times, didn't think much of it at first. Around 1pm I noticed there was a superworm on the floor of the tank, regurgitated, and fully intact. That's when I knew something was wrong, so I opened up the tank, and saw this:
I was horrified, and instantly panicked. The feeling was like witnessing something bad that just happened to your family/friends. I got really sick. And here's a pic of the regurgitated superworm:
My poor gecko looked so pale and white, I thought for sure she was dead
Over the course of two weeks straight, she defecated blood at least twice a day.
I did take her to the vet, an exotics animal vet that is familiar with leopard geckos. He was surprised she lived past the first day after seeing the pictures. But aside from that, he couldn't tell me where she was bleeding internally, he had no way to stop the bleeding. He even prescribed me Metronidazole, which is an antibiotic used to treat parasite infections. He thought the bleeding may have come from parasites, which I said was not the case.
But I took the dose home just in case, and went and got a fecal exam to make sure she did not have any parasites. The fecal exam came back negative, no parasite infection. I end up not giving her any antibiotics because blind treating her may end up making her weaker.
The vet also prescribed Carafate, which as explained to me is like a pepto-bismol for reptiles. Now that's something I could definitely see help, so I followed the instructions and gave her a smaller than instructed dose of it for a few days.
On the 3rd week, she finally stopped defecating blood. And a few days ago, she pushed out this pile of junk
I never thought I would get so excited looking at poop, but I really was excited looking at a poop that was not in a pool of blood. And two days ago, she started acting like she wanted to eat. There was a routine where when I opened the tank, she would poke her head out if she wants to eat, and she did that two days ago. So I fed her a dubia roach, she ate it without hesitation. I was honestly worried right then as maybe eating would've reopened whatever wound she had.
But I'm glad to say, she defecated without blood again, so looks like she fought through it and will be OK now
Here she is, still a bit pale, but she's starting to get color in her once again:
Compare this to when she was completely healthy, she has a ways to go yet. But at least she fought through it and she looks like she'll be fine.
So if anybody ever has any doubts superworms can cause injuries to a leopard gecko, or even death, I hope this puts rest to that. Superworms have incredibly strong mandibles. Have you ever held a superworm and pressed your finger against its mouth? It'll bite, and you will hurt. That's how strong their mandibles are. If they can bite hard enough for us human skins to feel it, imagine what they can do inside a gecko's body.
Also by the looks of the regurgitated worm, it sure didn't look like it was dissolved in any way. So for people to suggest superworms will die of stomach acid right away is also wrong. The superworm will die eventually, but the problem is, what damages would it cause inside a gecko's stomach before dying?
Now I'm not advocating to stop using superworms completely. We still use superworms here, but we no longer just feed them anymore. We pinch their heads (which in effect breaking their mandibles). Some people don't want to do that because it's messy and takes time, but to know there's a chance your gecko could bleed out like mine did, or maybe die, do you really want to take that chance?
People can say this is a super rare occurrence, but I have doubts about that. In the internet age, we are finally seeing more people report such things on forums and on websites. Where as 10 years ago things like this could happen and nobody would know about it. Also the reptile vet I went to thought the blood came from parasite infection. That leads me to believe other people may have taken their geckos to vets when they saw blood in the poop, and be given antibiotics and called it a day. Some may have their geckos die and a novice owner would not even know the death may have been caused by a superworm.
To prove this isn't all that rare, just 2 weeks after this incident, we had another gecko that ate a superworm wrong. (This was prior to us deciding to pinch all superworm heads) She violently regurgitated this superworm after not chomping its head while it went in. She stopped eating for a few weeks due to it.
Fortunately she did not bleed, so apparently the superworm didn't do the same type of injuries to this gecko. But it was bad enough for this gecko to regurgitate the superworm violently and stop eating completely. So twice in two weeks, rare? I must be just having bad luck if this is truly rare.
Anyways, on a brighter note, you guys notice how all the pics of the poop and blood were on the paper towel? This awesome gecko walked out of her hide to the corner even while she was really sick and bleeding internally, and she never made a mess outside of that corner. This is one special dear pet, and I'm so glad she fought through it. I was feeling really bad and responsible because I'm the owner that fed her a big juicy superworm. I listened to others that superworms were 100% safe and that pinching heads was not necessary. My pet almost died due to it, never again.
That's our story, again I'm not advocating to not use superworms at all. But I feel it's important for people to know the potential risks, and that you can always play safe and just pinch their heads to break their mandibles before feeding them to your geckos. Good day
Superworms are aggressive, they have strong mandibles that could cause injuries to your gecko either externally (such as when they bend around to bite a gecko's eye, there have been reported injuries to the eyes by superworms), or internally, such as a gecko eating a superworm without chomping on their head, and the superworm could bite and cause injuries to a gecko's mouth, throat, or stomach. My gecko went through a horrific internal bleeding incident caused by a superworm, but she survived. She's now feeding well and bleeding has completely stopped.
With that said, we still use superworms here. But we do not feed superworms without pinching their mandibles. You don't have to kill the superworm by crunching their head. Their dangerous parts are their mandibles, you can see how it works by holding the worm with one hand, then press a finger into their mouth. They'll open up their mandibles to bite you, and you'll likely feel it so you can see how strong they are. All you have to do is to clip or crush their mandibles just a little bit so they can't bite. Then they should be completely safe to feed to your geckos.
I'm late to the thread but I feel I should chime in on the potential dangers of superworms. Here's our story..
On Jan. 16th around 1am in the morning, I fed my beautiful super giant mack snow raptor a superworm. It was really just a treat, as she usually gets dubia roaches every other day. But she was looking through the tank, looking cute, so I dropped a superworm in the tank for her.
She gobbled up the worm, didn't get to chomp on the head and just swallowed it pretty much. I was instantly worried when I saw it, so I hopped online to start researching. Every sites/posts I've read, everybody said superworms are 100% safe, that all negative things said about superworms are myth. People suggested that a gecko's stomach acid would kill it instantly if the superworm isn't already dead going in. Anybody that attempted to suggest superworms could cause injuries to geckos were instantly shot down, called liars, called names, etc.. So having read that, I went to sleep feeling a bit better.
Next day everything carried on as usual. I noticed seeing her out and about a couple of times, didn't think much of it at first. Around 1pm I noticed there was a superworm on the floor of the tank, regurgitated, and fully intact. That's when I knew something was wrong, so I opened up the tank, and saw this:
I was horrified, and instantly panicked. The feeling was like witnessing something bad that just happened to your family/friends. I got really sick. And here's a pic of the regurgitated superworm:
My poor gecko looked so pale and white, I thought for sure she was dead
Over the course of two weeks straight, she defecated blood at least twice a day.
I did take her to the vet, an exotics animal vet that is familiar with leopard geckos. He was surprised she lived past the first day after seeing the pictures. But aside from that, he couldn't tell me where she was bleeding internally, he had no way to stop the bleeding. He even prescribed me Metronidazole, which is an antibiotic used to treat parasite infections. He thought the bleeding may have come from parasites, which I said was not the case.
But I took the dose home just in case, and went and got a fecal exam to make sure she did not have any parasites. The fecal exam came back negative, no parasite infection. I end up not giving her any antibiotics because blind treating her may end up making her weaker.
The vet also prescribed Carafate, which as explained to me is like a pepto-bismol for reptiles. Now that's something I could definitely see help, so I followed the instructions and gave her a smaller than instructed dose of it for a few days.
On the 3rd week, she finally stopped defecating blood. And a few days ago, she pushed out this pile of junk
I never thought I would get so excited looking at poop, but I really was excited looking at a poop that was not in a pool of blood. And two days ago, she started acting like she wanted to eat. There was a routine where when I opened the tank, she would poke her head out if she wants to eat, and she did that two days ago. So I fed her a dubia roach, she ate it without hesitation. I was honestly worried right then as maybe eating would've reopened whatever wound she had.
But I'm glad to say, she defecated without blood again, so looks like she fought through it and will be OK now
Here she is, still a bit pale, but she's starting to get color in her once again:
Compare this to when she was completely healthy, she has a ways to go yet. But at least she fought through it and she looks like she'll be fine.
So if anybody ever has any doubts superworms can cause injuries to a leopard gecko, or even death, I hope this puts rest to that. Superworms have incredibly strong mandibles. Have you ever held a superworm and pressed your finger against its mouth? It'll bite, and you will hurt. That's how strong their mandibles are. If they can bite hard enough for us human skins to feel it, imagine what they can do inside a gecko's body.
Also by the looks of the regurgitated worm, it sure didn't look like it was dissolved in any way. So for people to suggest superworms will die of stomach acid right away is also wrong. The superworm will die eventually, but the problem is, what damages would it cause inside a gecko's stomach before dying?
Now I'm not advocating to stop using superworms completely. We still use superworms here, but we no longer just feed them anymore. We pinch their heads (which in effect breaking their mandibles). Some people don't want to do that because it's messy and takes time, but to know there's a chance your gecko could bleed out like mine did, or maybe die, do you really want to take that chance?
People can say this is a super rare occurrence, but I have doubts about that. In the internet age, we are finally seeing more people report such things on forums and on websites. Where as 10 years ago things like this could happen and nobody would know about it. Also the reptile vet I went to thought the blood came from parasite infection. That leads me to believe other people may have taken their geckos to vets when they saw blood in the poop, and be given antibiotics and called it a day. Some may have their geckos die and a novice owner would not even know the death may have been caused by a superworm.
To prove this isn't all that rare, just 2 weeks after this incident, we had another gecko that ate a superworm wrong. (This was prior to us deciding to pinch all superworm heads) She violently regurgitated this superworm after not chomping its head while it went in. She stopped eating for a few weeks due to it.
Fortunately she did not bleed, so apparently the superworm didn't do the same type of injuries to this gecko. But it was bad enough for this gecko to regurgitate the superworm violently and stop eating completely. So twice in two weeks, rare? I must be just having bad luck if this is truly rare.
Anyways, on a brighter note, you guys notice how all the pics of the poop and blood were on the paper towel? This awesome gecko walked out of her hide to the corner even while she was really sick and bleeding internally, and she never made a mess outside of that corner. This is one special dear pet, and I'm so glad she fought through it. I was feeling really bad and responsible because I'm the owner that fed her a big juicy superworm. I listened to others that superworms were 100% safe and that pinching heads was not necessary. My pet almost died due to it, never again.
That's our story, again I'm not advocating to not use superworms at all. But I feel it's important for people to know the potential risks, and that you can always play safe and just pinch their heads to break their mandibles before feeding them to your geckos. Good day
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