D3 poisoning

andy27012

andy27012

Member
I understand d3 is fat soluble and has the potential to build up in an animal over time and potentially cause issues. My question to everyone is, have you had or have you known some one who has a documented instance of d3 poisoning? Not, my friend had a buddy whose animal died of d3 poisoning etc. A person you interact with regularly who took the deceased animal to a vet and had a biopsy done to confirm the vet felt it was a result of d3? It seems to get thrown around a lot these days but four or five years ago no one worried about it and I have yet to see a Cham death that d3 was the suspect. On the other end of the spectrum a lack of d3 is incredibly dangerous as it makes the calcium unavailable to the animal, the result is impaired muscle function from the heart to the lungs. I should mention the animal in my avatar was raised on rep cal with d3 dusted on a daily basis and is a happy healthy animal today at the ripe age of 6.
 
Yup, but it seems like the opposite is more common to find! You hardly see posts about overdose! On the opposite side of the coin, metabolic bone disease is a very common occurrence people need help with on this forum!
 
Depends on what brand of calcium with d3 that is used I believe. Some brands have a very low concentration of it and others are higher. I remember many years ago, someone did a breakdown of the different brands and one was so low that you could use it everyday and it still did not add up to one that if you used it twice a month, you still would be using way less.
 
carol5208 said:
Depends on what brand of calcium with d3 that is used I believe. Some brands have a very low concentration of it and others are higher. I remember many years ago, someone did a breakdown of the different brands and one was so low that you could use it everyday and it still did not add up to one that if you used it twice a month, you still would be using way less.
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So I will take this to mean you do not have any personal experience with a Cham oding on d3?
 
No, I do not. I do not use d3 at all so I will never know! I live in Florida and my chameleons get natural UVB everyday so there is no need to use artificial. I was just pointing out that if the d3 were in a low enough daily dose, it probably is safe. I remember one brand, and the label gave the concentration and it was ungodly high. I would not want to use that one everyday. Alot of people are using the Repsashy all in one and it contains d3 and I don't think anyone has reported any problems.
 
I will add my non-useful story. After having my panther for about 6 months, dusting daily with Repashy all in one and gut loading with Bug Burger, something seemed to be off. He was only pooping once every 2.5 weeks, he would have occasional episodes of gaping, and he had gular edema. He had white urates and ate well, but seemed listless. The UVB bulb (zoomed 5.0 T5HO) was still in the zone (measured with Solarmeter 6.5). I started getting him in the sun for an hour or two most days and cut back the supplementation to about once a week. This improved his condition greatly. The edema and gaping went away, and he eventually went back to pooping every 2-3 days. That was all 6 months ago. Since his UV bulb appeared to be adequate, my only theory was that he was being over-supplemented. (Thoughts?)

If we are ever going to learn the actual nutritional requirements for chameleons, someone is going to have to start collecting data. One good source would be necropsies along with a consistent set of husbandry information prior to the death. Unfortunately, I doubt many people are going to pay to have a chameleon necropsied.
 
Over supplementing is a "thing" and lots of reptiles die from it per year, or at leas suffer. The D3 overdose thing has been done to death. Repcal +D3 has been on the market for decades (yes before this internet thing). The stuff is like 240,000 ui per kg, the fda limit is 5000 ui per kg. mineralall -I is ultra low dose 2000ui per kg. I have not found a single recorded case of any problems from either dosage, and again these are very popular and have been on the market since the 1990's.

WHen you see an animal that is "not right" its normally from getting dusted every meal, or being fed dozens of ghost crickets at least once a week.

Im sure everyone has noticed there is not a supplement recommendation based on animal weight and amount of powder that needs ingested.

Still... Im not feeding my animals 240,000 ui, when they have been fine on 2000ui for 20 years. I have never had bad blood work or MBD.
 
D3 is seldom supplied alone and often it's the fact that vitamin supplements also have D3, in addition to the calcium sources people use. I have seen over supplemented animals. It is next to impossible what was overdosed, since most supplements are a mixture of vitamins and not exclusively D3. Since chameleons are designed to manufacture D3 through the absorption of UVB and not obtain it regularly through diet, it stands to reason we should focus on our UVB and less on supplementing with D3. D3 supplements are best used to fill in where animals may be hiding in enclosure foliage and getting less UVB, from their bulbs, or to catch short falls in general and not to be relied upon for D3 exclusively.
I think people overdose nearly everything, if they are providing a good gutload and then supplementing. No one is dusting feeders with calcium every feeding in nature and constantly supplying loads of it has shown to calcify joints and cause binding of other nutrients. I dust very infrequently and it varies by species and age as to how often and what I use and it's never all of the feeders offered. For my parsons, I over one supplemented item once or twice a week, with plain calcium and even less often with vitamins and D3, which I offer every month to 6 weeks. Now, my gutload is phenomenal and homemade and fed in conjunction with high calcium greens, vegetables, and select fruits. I also fed them an 85% wild caught diet, this Summer. My growing veiled gets supplemented at least once a week with calcium, usually 2-3 times, and about weekly with vitamins. He is outdoors, with natural UVB, so I do not use D3 for him. He also gets well gutloaded feeders and wild caught prey.
I use several vitamin and calcium products, to ensure a broad spectrum of things are well covered, but I believe in smaller, more frequent doses, versus how most people are advised to supplement. I accomplish that with my gutload. I would prefer to supplement small numbers of feeders and offer supplements more often, but the dosages on most supplements are not specific to chameleons, much less montane species. Gullar edema is often the first sign of too much of something and if I'm not seeing any and everyone is growing, eating, gaining weight, and appearing healthy, I assume they aren't missing anything.
 
The D3 is to stop your chameleon from being skinny. I have been bother by lots of people saying my chameleon has MBD, when he really doesn't. Don't feed him to much D3. You never know what could happen...
 
XxSepiorxX said:
The D3 is to stop your chameleon from being skinny. I have been bother by lots of people saying my chameleon has MBD, when he really doesn't. Don't feed him to much D3. You never know what could happen...
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??? Vitamin D3 on its own shouldn't cause weight loss in a cham. Too much or too little D3 interferes with calcium metabolism. A cham can look skinny for all sorts of reasons including hunger strike/starvation, malnutrition, and dehydration.
 
XxSepiorxX said:
The D3 is to stop your chameleon from being skinny. I have been bother by lots of people saying my chameleon has MBD, when he really doesn't. Don't feed him to much D3. You never know what could happen...
Click to expand...
....wut? D3 makes your chameleon fat?

I am no biologist but this is how I understand it:
d3 + heat is needed to synthesize D3 into vitamin D which is needed for a good bone metabolism...

Simply put... Calcium strengthens the bone and the vitamin d makes it flexible. This needs to be in balance and in accordance to the requirements of the body.

D3 can become harm full if overdosed since the body can't dispose of it as easily as it can with other vitamins and minerals.
 
Remkon said:
....wut? D3 makes your chameleon fat?

I am no biologist but this is how I understand it:
d3 + heat is needed to synthesize D3 into vitamin D which is needed for a good bone metabolism...

Simply put... Calcium strengthens the bone and the vitamin d makes it flexible. This needs to be in balance and in accordance to the requirements of the body.
.
Click to expand...
That's not correct. If you are wondering, two of my credentials is MD and CCD [Certified Clinical Densitometrist.. specializing in diagnosing and treatment of bone density disorders].
 
Yes, the symptoms are usually gullar edema, gullar edema is made worse by dehydration in wild caughts, medications, and oversupplementation. Gullar edema is indicative of kidney stress, and often, damage.
Without Vitamin A, MBD can be exasperated and calcium absorption can be hindered. This often starts with eye problems.
I noticed these symptoms in montane species, melleri and meru jacksons. I saw these issues in both WC and CB animals.
 
WAMBO said:
That's not correct. If you are wondering, two of my credentials is MD and CCD [Certified Clinical Densitometrist.. specializing in diagnosing and treatment of bone density disorders].
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I was not wondering what your credentials are but now I am wondering what's not correct...;)
 
Remkon said:
I was not wondering what your credentials are but now I am wondering what's not correct...;)
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Of course my friend. I only wanted to show I knew more than the usual member, since we recently had new members post incorrect info. I did not want to explain the detail and perhaps confuse more, but I'll try. I think that you were thinking of osteoblast cells, which lay down new bone, vs osteoclast cells, that absorb bone. The big role that Vitamin D has in this is to help with calcium absorption. As stated above by Extensionofgreen, there are other factors involved too. The effects on are chams is something that you probably know better than me, since you are much more experienced. I've read many of your helpful posts, so I would like to thank you too.
Cheers,
Bill
 
WAMBO said:
Of course my friend. I only wanted to show I knew more than the usual member, since we recently had new members post incorrect info. I did not want to explain the detail and perhaps confuse more, but I'll try. I think that you were thinking of osteoblast cells, which lay down new bone, vs osteoclast cells, that absorb bone. The big role that Vitamin D has in this is to help with calcium absorption. As stated above by Extensionofgreen, there are other factors involved too. The effects on are chams is something that you probably know better than me, since you are much more experienced. I've read many of your helpful posts, so I would like to thank you too.
Cheers,
Bill
Click to expand...
Aye, I don't mind it if people provide bad information as long as they don't bring it as 100% truth. Just like my post, I appreciate you correcting me since I will learn from it and having a better understanding could possibly help down the road...
I guess we're all here in the best interest of our animals and to learn stuff to further improve on that care.

I highly doubt my experience exceeds that of a valued member like yourself.;)
 
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