Definitely MBD

FaunaBgirl

FaunaBgirl

New Member
6 weeks old, Mr. Triggs definitely has MBD.Today I will get a new 5.0 bulb, new calcium/D3 phosphorus free, and Triple calcium liquid. Crickets are gut loaded daily with Zilla gut load, carots, chard and fluker's calcium gel for water source. I suspect that my bulb is not sufficient... I"ve had it for 5 mos. But I thought the sun he gets each morning would be a saving plus. :{ There has been a drop in night temps last 4 days. Could that be a factor in this, for his age?
He started hanging from his open screen cage top 3 days ago and this morning started shakes.
Is there anything else I've not thought of to do for him? Husbandry pic in gallery. Window one.
 
If what you describe as shakes is your cham walking in a jerky motion, that might not be MBD. It could be a natural defense that arboreal chams use to emulate a leaf blowing randomly in the wind.

Also, is your cham getting direct sunlight or through a closed window??
 
What makes you think that he has MBD? Has he seen a vet? Chameleons will hang from the top of their cage to get closer to the basking and UVB lights if they do not have a perch that is sufficiently close enough. Have you tried checking your temperatures? Do you have plenty of foliage in the cage and plenty of vines or sticks for him to get to different levels in the cage to help moderate his temperature?

Replacing your UVB bulb is a good idea of course, but If it is 5 months old, I don't think that it would be the sole culprit.

Be very careful in adding so much calcium to your chameleon's diet. You can definitely have too much of a good thing and at only 6 weeks old it would be extremely easy to over do it.

I do not think that a drop in temperature at night would cause problems for a jackson's chameleon and definitely not the things that you are worried about.

What do you mean by "the shakes"? Can you describe this better?

Does he show any other MBD symptoms (rubbery jaw or casque, lack of feeding, inablilty to shoot tongue, or poor aim when shooting tongue, not lifting his belly up when he walks, falling, lethargy, fractures in the limbs)?

I would consult with the vet before adding a calcium supplement into his diet.. especially if you are properly gutloading and dusting his feeders already. Do you use a calcium w/D3 supplement twice a month or so?
 
He hangs away from the bulb which is the best 5.0 you can get at EBV in Berkeley. And when he is healthy he does the natural "Madagascar shuffle." He has not done that in a week or more. This is outright shakes of his front arms. Puts arm out straight and it literally convulses it for about 1 second or 2. Grabbing for a limb, reaches, tremors for a bit, waves at the limb then grapples it. While I can't say absolutely it's MBD, it has major earmarks of it. He eats well.He's too tiny to see the other symptoms rubbery jaw, (has no casque..Jackson) etc, but not as tiny as his sister Lali-Jack who is not hanging from the top, but from the side lately. She has two deformities... her front right and her back left, so she can't really hang from the top. This has been going on noticably within the last 3 days. Possibly started earlier but was not excessive, therefore not as noticable. I have only had them for a few weeks.I am questioning proper protocol for MBD with neonates, please. Or if someone has a different possibility for me to examine. I would LOVE to be wrong about the MBD. But a good revamping of the husbandry and freshening of vits will help my anxiety for now.
 
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Fauna,

I had the same concerns with Clyde and it turned out he had plenty of calcium. (Look for my thread in the health section) His deal was the amount of UV and heat he was getting. He was also doing the twitching as he was moving about. But it wasn't from MBD, it was just from being REALLY tired. Cold temps make them sluggish.

So after keeping him really well warmed during the day and getting him outside more he's doing well. Clyde sits right next to a window as well, but the sunlight just isn't enough. Everyone in here will agree, that getting a cham outside even for a 2 or 3 hrs works wonders. It did for clyde. I can't afford those explrorariums or reptariums, but Clyde is small enough that I bought a cheapo $13 birdcage lined the bottom well, put in plants and sticks and away he goes!

Right now, he's hanging upside down underneath his basking lamp. And less than one week ago I was worried about him having MBD and not lasting till today. Chams aren't the most resilient guys, but when they get the right heat and light, BAM!

Still go see a vet tho.
 
My male jacksons has always used the top of the enclosure. He walks all over up there and its one of his favorite spots to hunt from. I didn't realize it could be connected to MBD. I always felt he was getting more UVB because he gets right under the 10.0 bulb.
 
Kam808 said:
My male jacksons has always used the top of the enclosure. He walks all over up there and its one of his favorite spots to hunt from. I didn't realize it could be connected to MBD. I always felt he was getting more UVB because he gets right under the 10.0 bulb.
Click to expand...

I don't believe that it is connected to MBD. At least it has never been in my experience.
 
You said..."crickets are gut loaded daily with Zilla gut load, carots, chard and fluker's calcium gel for water source....what is in the Zilla gutload in the way of calcium, phos., D3 and preformed vitamin A? In the Calcium gel?

Phosphorous, calcium, Vitamin D3 and vitamin A are the four main players in bone health/MBD...and they need to be in balance. When trying to attain a balance, its important to look at anything you feed the insects or anything (like supplements) that you feed to the chameleon.

You could improve your gutload by using a variety of the following: Greens (collards, dandelion, kale, endive, escarole, mustard greens) and veggies (carrot, squash, zucchini, sweet potato, etc.). (Not sure if chard is okay or not.)

Does the UVB and sunlight that you provide for the chameleon pass through glass or plastic?

Are your basking temperatures appropriate?

As was already suggested, a visit to the vets wouldn't be a bad idea. It could then be determined if MBD is the problem. If it is, the vet could give injections of calcium to it and, when the blood levels of calcium are high enough, a shot of calcitonin which would draw the calcium quickly back into the bones.

Good luck with your chameleon!
 
Hey PJ,
Sorry I just noticed this thread. I gotta agree with everyone. First it seems rather early for there to be any signs of MBD. Studies have shown that just a few hours of direct sunlight a day maintains proper levels of vit. d3 in the blood as well. You're giving him that plus the 10.0 bulb all day. You've noticed that something is different though so it certainly warrants more investigation. Most important, is he still eating and drinking? Eyes and reaction to stimuli seem normal? Once he grasps the branch, does he still have the strength to climb up, etc?

The hanging upside down is likely just his displeasure with being confined to a cage. He's a boy, it happens :/ Unless the cage is way too small, he will likely grow out of that habit soon enough.
 
sooo hanging from the top of there open air cages means they have MBD....
why is that, couldnt it be that there jus trying move around?? im not sure but i have a jackson's that does that ad he also has a UVB over him and he goes and out and gets raw sun on occasion. but yah if that does mean he has MBD ill have to get a new light. any clarification would help guys
thanks
 
No hanging from the top of the cage doesn't mean he has MBD.... I think Kent was saying it may have a small chance that he either is getting too big for the enclosure and /or is just exploring, my 2 week veiled is upside down a lot, when i first got April and Phil they were upside down on the top all the time...
 
Yeah, I just meant he's being a chameleon and will likely grow out of the hanging phase.

Ren, Ape and Phil? You named your chameleons after the Margeras?? That's great! :D
 
Ok... You all are helping me tweak this thing. Mr. Triggs is 6 weeks old now. And I admit, I was alarmed when I saw him hanging there all day and night and another day. Then when I saw the spasm/shakes, I jumped to the MBD thing because of something I read. Anyway.... I left the top off his cage all day today and he stayed in the cage. hm? AND he was not going to the light. It's stinking hot here. So I will opt for the just being a Jackson chameleon thing.
He's eating voraciously. Drinking well and has 10 times the size fecals then he did just a few weeks ago. He's light a lot from the heat here. Beautiful colors in the mornings when he's misted and hunting, etc.
Now.... I have a brand new 5.0 UVB that I got him the other day. Also, he gets calcium D3 once every 10 days. He also gets reptivite every 4 days. Lightly. He gets two hours of morning sun each day and fresh air continuously. I have a small cool mist humidifier and fan hooked up that keeps the area cool and circulated but it's still really hot here. He seems to feel at home in his cage with pothos and schefflera.
I'm installing a stick highway around the top of his cage. I think being a guy, he just likes to be at the tippy top. He likes his new trapeze the best so far and sitting on the highest schefflera leaf when he's not cruising the cage top. Interesting that he did not leave his cage all day with the top off and big plants hanging near. hm?
Dave suggested I put his cage higher up. I like that idea.
Stories about Clyde put me at ease, thank you, David. You all contributed to helping me relax. I will figure out how to post a picture, but I think you can all agree, he's in really good health and I'm just overprotective. I think it's because I feel like I'm loosing his sister Lali-Jack. She's staying small and getting more and more unresponsive. Could be the heat. And she's just a way different personality and what with her deformities to deal with.
So you think I should have a 10.0 bulb for Jacksons? My veiled grew up on a 5.0. Do Jackson's need more? Whatever they need, just tell me and I'll get it. Thanks!
 
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Since Mr.T is doing so well, just try to keep her in as close to the same conditions and there's not much more you can do. Except of course, doing whatever you can to make sure food is getting into her. Sure hope she pulls through.
 
hairfarm67 said:
Since Mr.T is doing so well, just try to keep her in as close to the same conditions and there's not much more you can do. Except of course, doing whatever you can to make sure food is getting into her. Sure hope she pulls through.
Click to expand...

Thanks! Will do. They have the same things and get the same treatments. Except that I think I've over handled Lali trying to keep her fed, watered and exercised. She's less co-operative with "hand" now. :{
 
I tend to think that it's part of human nature to gravitate towards "the flame"
when dealing with a animal that has a bunch of personal unknowns for the owner.

the only thing I can say is that right now your animal may just be OK with nothing wrong at all.
The best advise I've read so far is regarding keeping your vitamins balanced.
Too much of anything can be bad for the animal.
 
Jeweledchameleons said:
I tend to think that it's part of human nature to gravitate towards "the flame"
when dealing with a animal that has a bunch of personal unknowns for the owner.

the only thing I can say is that right now your animal may just be OK with nothing wrong at all.
The best advise I've read so far is regarding keeping your vitamins balanced.
Too much of anything can be bad for the animal.
Click to expand...

Yep... I agree. And thank you, Kinyonga for pointing out the balance thing. I am definitely not over vitaminizing... so no worries there. Its' just hard to see one thriving and the other deteriorating. :{ And you are doing the same for each... except that Lali is refusing food now. Only ate a small cricket and small worm all day. Luckily for me, My zophoeba bettles had baby worms, as the heat took out all my phoenix worms. Everyday is a crisis and a victory. What a roller coaster ride!
 
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