Dehydrated Cham, desperate for help.

[Jzelisko]

Cham:
Chameleon - Panther (Ambanja), Male, 12 months --purchased him from an expo 5 days ago
Handling - only when cleaning out enclosure / shower
Feeding - medium crickets 5-8 in the morning dusted with calcium with D3 gut loading with mustard cabbage and carrots, super/wax worms
Supplements - calcium with and without D3 by Zoo Med, multi vitamin by Exo Terra
Watering - Monsoon mister every 2 hours for 30 seconds, nonstop dripper, fogger/humidifier, manually spray chameleon when needed --all water is distilled (he is severely dehydrated)
Fecal description - He went once since I've had him. It was brown with a white rate but a little yellow and wet - never tested for parasites
History - none.

Cage info:
Type - aluminum mesh large
Lighting - 60 watt red ambiant, 75 watt basking light, 60 watt uvb
Temp - 45-75% humidity, 70 ambiant, 85 basking 12 hrs during the day / 45-60% humidity, 65 (room temp) no UVA/B or basking 12 hrs at night --use thermometer that measure both temp and humidity
Plants - fake vines, fake plants, one baked grape vine, one live golden pathos repotted in natural/organic soil and cleaned of ll pesticides
Placement - in my office (very low traffic area)
Location - Connecticut

Current problem:
Dehydration, loss of appitite:

I purchased him from a NY reptile expo. Breeders informed me he was a year old with no visual or behavioral signs of health issues at the time of purchase. The Ride home was 2 hours. The Heat was on high with humidity in the car he was in a snake bag which was left a bit open for ventilation. The next morning he showed signs of dehydration. Mouth was dry but was showing incentive to eat crickets. Started by spraying him and all of his enclosure 3 times a day. The next day he stopped eating I bought a little dripper to increase water and humidity in his enclosure along with a live plant to retain water on his leaves. The day after he refused all staple feeders and his eyes started to sink in. I could visually see him starting to lose weight due to his eyes legs, ribs, and spine. Day three and he's still not eating. I bought super worms and wax worms and a feeding dish, but he refused them and due to all of the water raining down his cage throughout the day they drown. I purchased A monsoon automated sprayer and it runs every 2 hours for 30 seconds along with the dripper and his fogger machine.

I am getting worried about losing him and and spending all day monitoring him and checking for progress. He does drink when he can but I tried the shower method with a plant catching drops bouncing off of the shower wall but he freaked out and did not drink anything for 10 minutes. I didn't want to add any extra stress to this poor guy so I put him back in his enclosure and he went straight for the dripper. The closest credible herp vet is 2 hours away. Does anybody have any suggestions or tips? Am I doing anything wrong? He has not eaten since his first morning 4 days ago.

 

[Andee]

Ok since he sounds like he's going down hill I am going to suggest something I usually do not suggest straight off. Do you have a 1 cc oral syringe? or generally a small oral syringe? I would prefer it be no larger than 1 cc. You can order them online if needed but having one available immediately would be best. Even if it needs to be cleaned you can clean it really well in vodka and then under a hot water stream and let it air dry before giving him anything in it. What I do then is give them luke warm water orally, never more than .5 cc at once, what you do is irritate them enough to open his mouth, stick it far back until the tip is passed the opening of the throat and push it in, preferably continue to hold his face between your thumb and forefinger so he doesn't spit it out and possibly aspirate it in the process. You giving it to him so far back in his mouth will cause it not to go near his trachea unless he spits it up. I usually do this 3-4 times a day, only doing .5 at each time. I would do this for the first 3 days. I don't recommend not going to the vet. I still think he needs it because his urates from the sounds of it do not have the color of dehydration that would cause this immediate of an affect in a panther. But monsoons usually (especially set for only 30 seconds) do not stimulate drinking. Also what temps were your shower waters at?

Edit: How long are you doing the fogging sessions for?

 

[Decadancin]

It isn't uncommon for a stressed chameleon to not show interest in eating. I would let him adjust to his new surroundings for a few days and see if he shows interest then. Could you post a few pictures of him so we can see if there are any issues we can see?

 

[Matt Vanilla Gorilla]

Try to look for stressors and eliminate them. Can he see a animal of prey or a picture of one? Remember, dogs, cats and birds are scary to them!

 

[Jzelisko]

Ok since he sounds like he's going down hill I am going to suggest something I usually do not suggest straight off. Do you have a 1 cc oral syringe? or generally a small oral syringe? I would prefer it be no larger than 1 cc. You can order them online if needed but having one available immediately would be best. Even if it needs to be cleaned you can clean it really well in vodka and then under a hot water stream and let it air dry before giving him anything in it. What I do then is give them luke warm water orally, never more than .5 cc at once, what you do is irritate them enough to open his mouth, stick it far back until the tip is passed the opening of the throat and push it in, preferably continue to hold his face between your thumb and forefinger so he doesn't spit it out and possibly aspirate it in the process. You giving it to him so far back in his mouth will cause it not to go near his trachea unless he spits it up. I usually do this 3-4 times a day, only doing .5 at each time. I would do this for the first 3 days. I don't recommend not going to the vet. I still think he needs it because his urates from the sounds of it do not have the color of dehydration that would cause this immediate of an affect in a panther. But monsoons usually (especially set for only 30 seconds) do not stimulate drinking. Also what temps were your shower waters at?

Edit: How long are you doing the fogging sessions for?

Fogging sessions are 2 hours 3 times a day. Right after I turn his lights on in the morning (0730), mid day, and before bed (930)
Shower temp was 70F. The same fogging machine and schedule is also supporting a Jackson's Chameleon. I would rather have a vet or vet tech do something like this but if they can not see him soon I will try this.

Thank you for the input.

 

[Andee]

I wouldn't worry much about the not eating, I would be more worried about the dehydration looks such as sunken eyes and general sunken sides that happened so quickly.

 

[kinyonga]

Please post a recent photo of him.
Are you letting the cage dry out before he goes to sleep?

 

[Graves923]

You mentioned having a mister spray every 2 hours for 30 secs. Try increasing the spray time to 2-4 minutes with a few hours in between. In my experience, 30 secs of misting isn't enough stimulation for the cham to start drinking.

If his urates are mostly white but he is showing other common dehydration signs, could there be something else going on?

 

[Jzelisko]

You mentioned having a mister spray every 2 hours for 30 secs. Try increasing the spray time to 2-4 minutes with a few hours in between. In my experience, 30 secs of misting isn't enough stimulation for the cham to start drinking.

If his urates are mostly white but he is showing other common dehydration signs, could there be something else going on?

Thanks for the input. I increased it to 2 min. Unfortunately thats the max with this model. I brought him to the vet got a de-worm oral med and carnivore care, also oral. He pooped this morning and it was runny with an orange urate followed by a parasite. It looked like a worm. I have one more dose of the de wormer hopefully it helps I also put him on a plant in the shower this morning and ran the water for a half an hour.

 

[Andee]

A parasite load that is affecting him this strongly shows that his system can't fight it off and he's too stressed so hopefully with some TLC he will bounce back <3 good luck and keep us updated

 

[Jzelisko]

Please post a recent photo of him.
Are you letting the cage dry out before he goes to sleep?

I am I turn the mister off at night, do a fogging session for an hour after his lights are out, and slow the dripper.

Please post a recent photo of him.
Are you letting the cage dry out before he goes to sleep?

Yes I am. Unfortunately it won't let me post any pictures for some reason

 

[Andee]

Definitely keep up the hydration attempts, especially when medicating. He will need it, most chameleons have issues with medications even if the medication is relatively benign. Just keep him going and he should turn around. Usually worms aren't too bad of a parasite. It's usually when you hit protozoans like coccidia that they wreak havoc and can kill a cham within days.

 

[Jzelisko]

It isn't uncommon for a stressed chameleon to not show interest in eating. I would let him adjust to his new surroundings for a few days and see if he shows interest then. Could you post a few pictures of him so we can see if there are any issues we can see?

Unfortunately I it won't let me post any pictures, or it just takes a really long time for them to upload. I took him to the vet and got an oral de-wormer and carnivore care for nutrition. He also got a shot with fluids. He pooped today (the second time since I've had him) and it was runny with an orange urate followed by a parasite. It looked like a worm. I'm thinking that is the root to all of his current problems. I have one more dose of de-wormer. Hopefully it helps. Since the vet and increased misting/fogging/dripping along with his oral supplements he has fattened up a bit and his eyes are looking a little better for now

 

[Jzelisko]

Definitely keep up the hydration attempts, especially when medicating. He will need it, most chameleons have issues with medications even if the medication is relatively benign. Just keep him going and he should turn around. Usually worms aren't too bad of a parasite. It's usually when you hit protozoans like coccidia that they wreak havoc and can kill a cham within days.

Is there anyway to test for protozoans. I do have a microscope will they show up in his feces so i can check? I have a live golden pothos in there and I repotted it into natural organic soil and wrapped the base in tinfoil to prevent him from consuming it. But it could also be a pool or protozoans and bacteria.

 

[kinyonga]

Did the vet see the worm? How does the vet know the right medication was given? There could be more than one type of parasite too and not all are killed by the same medication. Hope your chameleon will be OK.

 

[Andee]

Usually coccidia happens from poor water quality or is passed from a reptile that already has it. Your vet would likely have already tested for it while testing his fecal. Doing fecals will show the presence of coccidia I just am not sure what type of fecal is done to shown them. I also know that the coccidia has to be in a certain stage to be detectable. He would likely already have been a lot worse by now. He would have had several episodes of diarrhea and likely a vomitting episode. Coccidia is nasty and once it starts affecting his system like it would the way he's acting he would already start needing serious care in my opinion. I wouldn't be super worried about protozoans yet. Coccidia is definitely the worse that exists. It also is a horrible thing to clean up afterward. Though Kinyonga might have some more info on coccidia? I have yet to actually deal with it, and hope I never ever do.

 

[kinyonga]

To be sure what parasites are there the vet needs to do a fecal float (except that if he sees the worm he might be able to ID it).

Coccidia is a protazoan....and blooms (increases) when the chameleon is under stress. Often there will be no symptoms if it's not a heavy load and in some cases might not even be treated. It's important to thoroughly disinfect the cage and everything in it while treating the chameleon. But so far we don't even know if the chameleon has it...we only know it has worms.