Dehydrated?

[Cucumber]

Hi, thanks for reading this. I'm still quite new to keeping chameleons. Does Cucumber (veiled chameleon) appear dehydrated? I don't think he looks especially different, but I looked at images of sunken eyes online and have started to worry that I'm not misting him enough or providing him with enough humidity.

I heavily mist him and his enclosure three times a day and have been trying to combine a water source. I initially started with a "Zoo Med Little Dripper, which I didn't get on with, then an Exo Terra small waterfall which stops working after about twelve hours of being cleaned out. I think the problem may be our hard water. I have just purchased an Exo Terra large dripper plant to try instead. So my question is what is the best system for a constant water source and does a veiled chameleon necessarily need one?

Thanks for your time and advice,
Oli

 

[Roger.bowen]

My advice is to buy a mist king. You can set a scedule on when you want to cage misted, for smaller chameleons you may want to mist more frequently.

I also suggest to look at his urates. If they are white, he is getting enough water, if they are yellow or orange, he is dehydrated and needs more water.

Another solution would be feeding him some hornworms, they are a very juicy worm and can help chameleons that aren't drinking

 

[Cucumber]

My advice is to buy a mist king. You can set a scedule on when you want to cage misted, for smaller chameleons you may want to mist more frequently.

I also suggest to look at his urates. If they are white, he is getting enough water, if they are yellow or orange, he is dehydrated and needs more water.

Another solution would be feeding him some hornworms, they are a very juicy worm and can help chameleons that aren't drinking

Great thanks for the advice Roger. We'll look in to a mist king, I've heard bad things about maintaining an automated mister, however I think it's the route we will go down.

I hadn't heard about monitoring his urates before, he craps two brown stools and a white stool consistently, reading other articles online now and that looks healthy.

Good tip on the hornworms. We've been feeding him some mealworms as a treat (heard they are fatty, like chocolate for chameleons?), he gobbles them up and is the easiest food to hand feed him at the moment.

Do you think his eyes look healthy enough in the picture?
Thanks for taking the time to reply, I really appreciate it.
Cheers,
Oli

 

[Crashbandit05]

His eye turrents appear slightly sunken, which can be caused by dehydration. But his colors are gorgeous!

 

[Cucumber]

Thanks Crashbandit. We'll make more effort to hydrate him, maybe up the misting to give him 5 sprays a day before we get an automated system set up. I've seen people using a syringe to drip feed water, however Chcumber doesn't seem to like drips from our fingers much, maybe we'll have more luck from a syringe. Any other hydration tips would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Oli

 

[Crashbandit05]

I'd personally use a different dripper than the waterfall. I use a big dripper that sits on top of my uvb light/LED hood. Some people make their own using a simple cup with a hole poked through. You can also cover sides of the enclosure to help maintain humidity.

 

[jajeanpierre]

Thanks Crashbandit. We'll make more effort to hydrate him, maybe up the misting to give him 5 sprays a day before we get an automated system set up. I've seen people using a syringe to drip feed water, however Chcumber doesn't seem to like drips from our fingers much, maybe we'll have more luck from a syringe. Any other hydration tips would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Oli

Can you send a picture of his pelvis, back and tail from above?

Sometimes their orbital crests--I think that's the right terminology, the ridge over their eyes--is conformed in such a way to make the eyes look deep set so they appear sunken when they are not. Chameleons also will pull in their eyes when they are being handled or photographed. A picture is often deceptive.

When they are dehydrated the skin loses that plump moist look and has a dry look to it. However, the skin will have that look as they prepare to shed, too.

Looking at the color of the urates is also helpful but not the be all and end all of judgine dehydration.

I like to look at their skin and the way the skin fits over their hips, tail and spine. A dehydrated animal will appear thin in those areas.

His eyes do look a little sunken in but his skin looks great. I wonder if it is just that he has such a pronounced brow so his eyes look sunken in.

Do you and your chameleon a favor and get yourself a MistKing. I bet you've already spent more than the cost of a MistKing with all the things you have tried that are not really working very well. They need the mist to clean their eyes, not just for drinking. They are no trouble at all once you get everything hooked up properly. You might think about getting extra hose. Use reverse osmosis water. If you don't have a reverse osmosis system, just buy water. One or two misters don't use much water. Fill it so that you need to replenish the water every couple of days rather than letting it just stand in the bucket.

Cute baby.

 

[Cucumber]

Can you send a picture of his pelvis, back and tail from above?

Sometimes their orbital crests--I think that's the right terminology, the ridge over their eyes--is conformed in such a way to make the eyes look deep set so they appear sunken when they are not. Chameleons also will pull in their eyes when they are being handled or photographed. A picture is often deceptive.

When they are dehydrated the skin loses that plump moist look and has a dry look to it. However, the skin will have that look as they prepare to shed, too.

Looking at the color of the urates is also helpful but not the be all and end all of judgine dehydration.

I like to look at their skin and the way the skin fits over their hips, tail and spine. A dehydrated animal will appear thin in those areas.

His eyes do look a little sunken in but his skin looks great. I wonder if it is just that he has such a pronounced brow so his eyes look sunken in.

Do you and your chameleon a favor and get yourself a MistKing. I bet you've already spent more than the cost of a MistKing with all the things you have tried that are not really working very well. They need the mist to clean their eyes, not just for drinking. They are no trouble at all once you get everything hooked up properly. You might think about getting extra hose. Use reverse osmosis water. If you don't have a reverse osmosis system, just buy water. One or two misters don't use much water. Fill it so that you need to replenish the water every couple of days rather than letting it just stand in the bucket.

Cute baby.

Thanks for such a comprehensive reply. We were originally put off the automated misters by a chap at the reptile store we bought Cucumber from. He's been an amazing source of advice for us but had two broken automated machines at the shop and believed hand misting was just easier. However reading about them on the forum tonight they seem the way to go. We're not concerned by the money more just the reliability.

I hope and think you may be right that this is just the shape of his eyes and brow as he's always kind of looked like that, I'm confident he hasn't always been dehydrated. It's gone midnight here, Cucumber is sleeping now, but I'll get a hips and tail shot tomorrow and post it on. Thanks again for your help we really appreciate it,
Oli

 

[Cucumber]

I'd personally use a different dripper than the waterfall. I use a big dripper that sits on top of my uvb light/LED hood. Some people make their own using a simple cup with a hole poked through. You can also cover sides of the enclosure to help maintain humidity.

Thanks Crashbandit. Yeah I'm hoping this tall plant dripper could be the way to go. The little dripper suffered because the tube had to go through a tight vent in the back of Cucumber's Evo vivarium.
Thanks again,
Oli

 

[jajeanpierre]

Thanks for such a comprehensive reply. We were originally put off the automated misters by a chap at the reptile store we bought Cucumber from. He's been an amazing source of advice for us but had two broken automated machines at the shop and believed hand misting was just easier. However reading about them on the forum tonight they seem the way to go. We're not concerned by the money more just the reliability.

I hope and think you may be right that this is just the shape of his eyes and brow as he's always kind of looked like that, I'm confident he hasn't always been dehydrated. It's gone midnight here, Cucumber is sleeping now, but I'll get a hips and tail shot tomorrow and post it on. Thanks again for your help we really appreciate it,
Oli

The pumps of many of the cheaper systems are ruined if they run dry. A MistKing can run dry and doesn't overheat. I've accidentally left one running all afternoon with no water and it was fine (an Aquazamp, but I suspect pretty much the same pump as the MistKing).

Your baby's brow ridge might be a little more prominent than many so might be deceiving but look at the bottom front corner of his eyes. It seems a little deep set at the front bottom corner, so keep an eye on him. Look at how bulgy his eyes are and just kind of get a feel for it. Live plants help as they hold water droplets and humidity longer. The species I work with, a montane (mountain) species, will dehydrate on a clear day in a couple of hours even with a mister running on them and regular soakings of the plants they are on. I think chronic dehydration is a huge problem for most chameleons.

 

[Cucumber]

Nice one, thanks jajeanpierre. We will be meticulously watching his eyes from now on for any signs of depression. We will up the misting regime until we get a mistking in place and hopefully this will help, also the addition of the tall leaf dripper.

We really pleased to have found this forum and help like this

 

[jajeanpierre]

Nice one, thanks jajeanpierre. We will be meticulously watching his eyes from now on for any signs of depression. We will up the misting regime until we get a mistking in place and hopefully this will help, also the addition of the tall leaf dripper.

We really pleased to have found this forum and help like this

I hope I helped. Lately I feel all I'm talking about is doom and gloom.

 

[OldChamKeeper]

I hope I helped. Lately I feel all I'm talking about is doom and gloom.

We keep chameleons. Doom and gloom is our stock in trade. Gecko keepers have a higher percentage of happiness over 5-20 years on many of us.

 

[Cucumber]

I hope I helped. Lately I feel all I'm talking about is doom and gloom.

No don't feel like that, you're helping us prevent any doom and gloom!
Here are some mobile shots of his back and thighs, he was colouring up a bit at the time. I realised the picture I uploaded the other day was actually taken a few weeks back, he's grown a bit since then. But his eye's seem to be like this most of the time. We've upped his daily spraying to 5-6 times a day now, but still trying to let his vivarium dry out a bit before sprays. We're looking in to the automated misting system you recommended and he has the tall leaf dripper going in his enclosure. He doesn't really like being fed water drips either from our fingers or a dispenser and I've never actually seen him take a drink/drip from any of the water systems we've tried in his vivarium. Hopefully he is drinking though and not just relying on fluid from his pray. Thanks again for your time, we really do appreciate your help and advice.
Cheers,
Oli

 

[jajeanpierre]

No don't feel like that, you're helping us prevent any doom and gloom!
Here are some mobile shots of his back and thighs, he was colouring up a bit at the time. I realised the picture I uploaded the other day was actually taken a few weeks back, he's grown a bit since then. But his eye's seem to be like this most of the time. We've upped his daily spraying to 5-6 times a day now, but still trying to let his vivarium dry out a bit before sprays. We're looking in to the automated misting system you recommended and he has the tall leaf dripper going in his enclosure. He doesn't really like being fed water drips either from our fingers or a dispenser and I've never actually seen him take a drink/drip from any of the water systems we've tried in his vivarium. Hopefully he is drinking though and not just relying on fluid from his pray. Thanks again for your time, we really do appreciate your help and advice.
Cheers,
Oli

The skin and flesh--fat and muscle--look plump and full over his spine and pelvis, so that looks good. I'm not crazy about the eye being sunk in a bit. It might be him pulling it back when presented with you or the camera. It might be the structure of his face.

Maybe for a week keep his cage soaked and don't let it dry out. Close up his cage to really bump up the humidity and make sure there are a lot of live plants that can collect water on their leaves and breathe, adding humidity to the air around them. See if his eye changes then. Really have a look at his eye and take a mental picture and keep looking. To me, male veileds seem to be shape shifters. One minute they look all fat and plump and the next they look like dehydrated emaciated little chameleons.

I never seem my chamleons drinking except if there is a problem and they are montanes with a high water requirement. That he will drink from your fingers or some other way with you involved is a big red flag to me. I would only expect a chameleon to drink that way if they were extremely thirsty.

 

[Cucumber]

The skin and flesh--fat and muscle--look plump and full over his spine and pelvis, so that looks good. I'm not crazy about the eye being sunk in a bit. It might be him pulling it back when presented with you or the camera. It might be the structure of his face.

Maybe for a week keep his cage soaked and don't let it dry out. Close up his cage to really bump up the humidity and make sure there are a lot of live plants that can collect water on their leaves and breathe, adding humidity to the air around them. See if his eye changes then. Really have a look at his eye and take a mental picture and keep looking. To me, male veileds seem to be shape shifters. One minute they look all fat and plump and the next they look like dehydrated emaciated little chameleons.

I never seem my chamleons drinking except if there is a problem and they are montanes with a high water requirement. That he will drink from your fingers or some other way with you involved is a big red flag to me. I would only expect a chameleon to drink that way if they were extremely thirsty.

Ok thanks Jajeanpierre. I'm hoping the slightly sunken eye is just his structure, I've looked at a few other images of veiled chameleons and many look similar, he has never looked any different (going through all our images of him). However we'll continue to monitor his eyes and humidity closely. We keep around 50/50 fake and live plants. We find the locus just consume the vegetation that we have to rotate his plants as they recover from locus damage (we are also feeding spring greens, dandelion leafs to the locus). Forgot to mention that his hygrometer is on around 75 consistently, That's good to know about the lack of drinking too, I won't bother trying to drip water directly in to his mouth anymore.
Cheers,
Oli

 

[jajeanpierre]

Ok thanks Jajeanpierre. I'm hoping the slightly sunken eye is just his structure, I've looked at a few other images of veiled chameleons and many look similar, he has never looked any different (going through all our images of him). However we'll continue to monitor his eyes and humidity closely. We keep around 50/50 fake and live plants. We find the locus just consume the vegetation that we have to rotate his plants as they recover from locus damage (we are also feeding spring greens, dandelion leafs to the locus). Forgot to mention that his hygrometer is on around 75 consistently, That's good to know about the lack of drinking too, I won't bother trying to drip water directly in to his mouth anymore.
Cheers,
Oli

Are you sure it isn't your chameleon that is eating the plants? My veiled can destroy an hibiscus. I have him outside for the summer and his cage is built around a fairly large 6' weeping redbud and I am worried he will eat it to the point where it's health will suffer. So far he hasn't. I also put in an hibiscus for him to eat. If you have so many locusts in your cage that they are stripping a plant, you might have a problem with them deciding to eat your chameleon when the run out of food they want. Just a thought.

 

[Cucumber]

Are you sure it isn't your chameleon that is eating the plants? My veiled can destroy an hibiscus. I have him outside for the summer and his cage is built around a fairly large 6' weeping redbud and I am worried he will eat it to the point where it's health will suffer. So far he hasn't. I also put in an hibiscus for him to eat. If you have so many locusts in your cage that they are stripping a plant, you might have a problem with them deciding to eat your chameleon when the run out of food they want. Just a thought.

Thanks Jajean
I hadn't even considered that Cucumber could be eating the plants. We've never seen him eat vegetation, we've tried him on all sorts of greens and fruit. But obviously we observe the locus chewing through it. We've got a better idea of how many he locus he needs now and don''t have so many in his enclosure at one time. I was speaking to a retile keeper the other day who suggested only feeding by hand so that they really gain that association with you. However I'm assuming for his health it's better if he has a constant food source and gets the exercise of hunting down pray?
Cheers,
Oli

 

[KLowery88]

Thanks Jajean
I hadn't even considered that Cucumber could be eating the plants. We've never seen him eat vegetation, we've tried him on all sorts of greens and fruit. But obviously we observe the locus chewing through it. We've got a better idea of how many he locus he needs now and don''t have so many in his enclosure at one time. I was speaking to a retile keeper the other day who suggested only feeding by hand so that they really gain that association with you. However I'm assuming for his health it's better if he has a constant food source and gets the exercise of hunting down pray?
Cheers,
Oli

You could keep feeding the locusts like normal, but maybe cut back a bit on certain days and then try offering something as a treat. Some type of worm perhaps. Silkworm, hornworm, waxworm, butterworm. That way he'll learn the really good stuff is coming from you and it will build up a positive association. I do think that some hunting is beneficial. Just about anything in captivity gets less exercise than they would in the wild, so encouraging them to move is good.

 

[Cucumber]

You could keep feeding the locusts like normal, but maybe cut back a bit on certain days and then try offering something as a treat. Some type of worm perhaps. Silkworm, hornworm, waxworm, butterworm. That way he'll learn the really good stuff is coming from you and it will build up a positive association. I do think that some hunting is beneficial. Just about anything in captivity gets less exercise than they would in the wild, so encouraging them to move is good.

Thanks Klowery
Yeah he loves mealworms, they are already a treat he only receives from us. I agree re the hunting, it's got to be stimulating for them.