Determining why my Chams died.

[broderp]

After losing my second Cham in less than a month, I am beside myself as to why they both passed in such a short time. My husbandry has been criticized, yet I had a healthy Cham for over 4 years. When I got a second, I took all the precautions I could think of including isolating the new one and keeping them 100% apart.

Could my new girl Gwenn have passed some disease or parasite to my older Cham Jackson? If so how? Even though I don't believe my husbandry is at fault, I can't help but wonder that maybe something I did contributed to their death. Both went from what I call 'normal' behavior to being obviously sick looking and passing away within 2 days. I didn't have time to get them to the vet. Both passed away before their respective vet appointments.

I am looking for constructive criticism on what my overall routine looks like and how (if at all) it may have contributed to my loss of my babies.

They both shared the same food. The crickets I fed them were stored together in a cricket keeper. They were fed a home made blend of food:

Crickets they did not eat were never returned to the keeper. I made the food into small ice cubes and froze it. This way when I refilled the keeper, I could drop in a few cubes and within an hour they had fresh food. I also mixed the fresh vegetables and fruit with CRICKET CRACK sold by a member of the forum.

They both had digital humidly and temps with light sensing that I made myself:

I kept both the terrariums clean weekly and they had plenty of places to climb and hide:
Jackson:

Gwenn:

When Gwenn passed away. I tore her terrarium apart and cleaned and re-cleaned all her stuff and put it aside. I did take one of her larger branches several days later (maybe a week) and used it in Jackson's terrarium to fill a spot that was bare. Could I have passed something along to him without knowing it?

Below is my info, if you have any questions, let me know. I'm still heartbroken over the loss of them both. It still hurts to see their pictures and their darkened terrariums that were always on in the morning. I'd like to know what I can to to prevent this from happening again if at all.

Chameleon Info:

• Your Chameleon - Veiled (both) One was between 4-5 year the other was 4-5 months.
• Handling - The older one ~ 2-3 times a week, the younger one ~ only once
• Feeding - Gut loaded crickets and "super worms" both ate around 5-8 large crickets every day around 7am. Super worms given as treats on weekends to encourage hand feeding. The young female never ate them as she was not fond of anyone and was aggressive.
• Supplements - Calcium w/out D3 every 2-3 days, Calcium with D3 every 2-3 days, vitamin supplement once every 2 weeks.
• Watering - The older Cham drank out of a water bottle, the younger one occupationally drank from the moisture on her plants from misting. Misting was fully automatic and kept the enclosure between 40 and 70% RH.
• Fecal Description - Color and consistency for both was normal for both. (I read the poop thread ) Never had either tested for parasites.
• History - Nothing unique..

Cage Info:

• Cage Type - Each were is a Ex-Terra terrarium. The larger one 24Wx18Dx36H the smaller is 24Wx18Dx24H.
• Lighting - T5 lighing with white LED . Lighting schedule was timed from dawn to dusk.
• Temperature - Digital controlled to 93-95 F in the basking spot to 70-75 Fin the lower 1/3 of the enclosure. Lowest temp approx 67 F. Temps are measured via digital controllers temp sensing AND secondary digital thermometer.
• Humidity - 40-70%RH How are you creating and maintaining these levels? Digital controls controlling humidifiers. Measured via digital controllers temp sensing AND secondary digital thermometer with humidity sense.
• Plants - No live plants. Cham safe branches used with fake leaves and commercial vegetation used to fill out and enclosure.
• Placement - Where is your cage located? One located in the dining room the other in the living room. Chams were not in view of each other. Light traffic, no moving air or drafts. The height of the larger terrarium is approx 7' the smaller 5' (in a much less traffic area)
• Location - OHIO

I had them both cremated. Gwenn is back home now, and I am waiting for Jackson to be brought home. I know this sound crazy, but they were more than just reptiles in a cage to me. The happiness and contentment they brought is still missed today.

 

[nightanole]

Greetings from ohio.

A few things. Keeping humidity at 40-70% and and keeping air temps around 75F is hard. For some reason they get upper respiratory infections if i use sonic humidifiers. I stopped using humidifiers and switch to a mister that goes off for 5-10min 8 times a day. Humidity stays at 40-45% when its below freezing out, and dries out to about 30% over night. Hey they they have dry seasons in their home countries and its only for 90 days or less. Since its warm this week the humidity is in the 60's.

2) jackson is very malnourished. He as zero fat on the hips and tail.

Odds are what happened was a respiratory infection, which can take them down in only a few days. Their noses will close up and they will start making a popping noise a few times a minute as they kinda breath through the mouth, and may even drool a little.

If it was a husbandry problem, it would be a slow decline in health over a month or more.

I also "feel" that your supliment sched is a too much for an adult but is fine for a fast growing young cham. You do not need calcium 2-3x a week combined with t5-ho's and D3 for an adult. With a proper gut load you dont need vit 2-3x a month either depending on the dostage.

 

[wavingsnail]

It sounds like you don't really understand the idea of cross contamination.

If you took branch A and put in in cage B without any sterilization, then, yes, you absolutely could have transferred something over.

It's also problematic that you kept them both in exoterra enclosures. I'm not saying doing so killed them in two days, but it definitely isn't recommended for most chameleon species.

A necropsy really would have given you a legitimate answer. Anything you get here will be a guess.

Sorry for your loss.

 

[Alexander1]

Interesting, I think a uri may of been noticed by the keeper, at least a sign here or there, does your terrarium temperature controller record the hottest and coldest temps? If they both shared the digital controller maybe it malfunctioned and allowed the temps inside your glass enclosure to be too hot?, a sudden loss of a Cham with your husbandry routine is most likely not the cause, I believe you may of been over supplementing but for the younger Cham to die so fast would lead me to beleave either a drastic temperate spike in an enclosed area but unless you get a necropsy you might not ever really find out. Never tested for parasites is also an issue, maybe inspect your temperature controller to rule that out in case you get another Cham. But I guess a very aggressive uri would cause that if you didn't pay attention

 

[broderp]

Greetings from ohio.

A few things. Keeping humidity at 40-70% and and keeping air temps around 75F is hard. For some reason they get upper respiratory infections if i use sonic humidifiers. I stopped using humidifiers and switch to a mister that goes off for 5-10min 8 times a day. Humidity stays at 40-45% when its below freezing out, and dries out to about 30% over night. Hey they they have dry seasons in their home countries and its only for 90 days or less. Since its warm this week the humidity is in the 60's.

2) jackson is very malnourished. He as zero fat on the hips and tail.

Odds are what happened was a respiratory infection, which can take them down in only a few days. Their noses will close up and they will start making a popping noise a few times a minute as they kinda breath through the mouth, and may even drool a little.

If it was a husbandry problem, it would be a slow decline in health over a month or more.

I also "feel" that your supliment sched is a too much for an adult but is fine for a fast growing young cham. You do not need calcium 2-3x a week combined with t5-ho's and D3 for an adult. With a proper gut load you dont need vit 2-3x a month either depending on the dostage.

Allow me to clarify, I had the humidity turn on when it drops to 40%. The humidifier was set to a very low setting so it took several minutes to reach 65% and would coast up to 70%. I measured humidity about 1/3 to 1/2 way down from the top of the terrarium. I had a very wide hysteresis and low output so it would cycle about 4 times from about 7 am to about 7 pm. At night, there was no humidity so it would drop to approximately the current ambient, sometimes down to 30%. I had no issues keeping the air temp 75 at the lower end of the terrarium and 95 at the highest level my Chams basked.

I thought Jackson was malnourished as well. I took him to a vet a few years back and they said he was fine. I also discussed this in the forum when it came to feeding him. I was feeding him every other day, but went to every day. I would feed him a counted amount of crickets (large) and counted what was left in the evening after he had put his pajamas on for the night. I found he typically ate 7-10 a day. It's hard to tell scale in the picture, but he was small. He never carried fat on his legs or tail since I had him. For being about 5 years old, he was only about 12 inches long and that was easily 1/2 tail. (Is this a normal size? I've seen much bigger at local reptile shows at that age) I did the same with Gwenn. Surprisingly, she ate about the same as Jackson.

He showed no signs of respiratory infection, I'm not dismissing your theory, just putting it out there for other to know I never witnessed any of these symptoms on either Cham.

I was much more stringent on Gwenn's supplement schedule. I will admit to skipping them from time to time on Jackson, so I thank you for bringing this to my attention.

It sounds like you don't really understand the idea of cross contamination.

If you took branch A and put in in cage B without any sterilization, then, yes, you absolutely could have transferred something over.

It's also problematic that you kept them both in exoterra enclosures. I'm not saying doing so killed them in two days, but it definitely isn't recommended for most chameleon species.

A necropsy really would have given you a legitimate answer. Anything you get here will be a guess.

Sorry for your loss.

Can you define "sterilization". I cleaned everything in Gwenn's cage after she died first with hot soapy water, then with Flukers brand reptile cleaner. I then let it dry completely for about a week. What else should I be doing? If and when I deside to get another Cham, I want to be sure that the supplies and things I have are safe. Or I will throw them away and start a new (branches and plants).

Exoterra terrariums are designed for proper air flow. I have been involved with a few debates here on this forum regarding screen cages vs. terrariums. Can you elaborate on why you think they are problematic?

Interesting, I think a uri may of been noticed by the keeper, at least a sign here or there, does your terrarium temperature controller record the hottest and coldest temps? If they both shared the digital controller maybe it malfunctioned and allowed the temps inside your glass enclosure to be too hot?, a sudden loss of a Cham with your husbandry routine is most likely not the cause, I believe you may of been over supplementing but for the younger Cham to die so fast would lead me to beleave either a drastic temperate spike in an enclosed area but unless you get a necropsy you might not ever really find out. Never tested for parasites is also an issue, maybe inspect your temperature controller to rule that out in case you get another Cham. But I guess a very aggressive uri would cause that if you didn't pay attention

Sorry for the dumb question, but what is a "uri"? Although the controllers them selves do not record high or low temps or humidity, the other sensors I had did. I could see the high and low for the past 24 hours. They each had their own "Jacksonator" as I call it, so they operated independent of one another. Each terrarium has two remote temp sensors, one at the basking spot and one down at the lower end. Here is the one I use:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00EXP4RNO/ref=s9_acsd_al_bw_c_x_1_w?th=1

I can't say I looked at it every day, but during the time I know they were sick, you better believe I was watching the temps and humidity. They recorded nothing abnormal. I will definitely inspect them both.

How does a cham get parasites? Can they gestate or live for years before causing death? Could they have gotten it from the crickets? It seems to me the loss of both is related, but I'm not finding a lot to support this. Could I have just had bad luck?

Thanks for the input.

 

[rminnis]

cricket keeper isnt a great place to keep crickers healthy and clean

 

[wavingsnail]

Can you define "sterilization". I cleaned everything in Gwenn's cage after she died first with hot soapy water, then with Flukers brand reptile cleaner. I then let it dry completely for about a week. What else should I be doing? If and when I deside to get another Cham, I want to be sure that the supplies and things I have are safe. Or I will throw them away and start a new (branches and plants).

Exoterra terrariums are designed for proper air flow. I have been involved with a few debates here on this forum regarding screen cages vs. terrariums. Can you elaborate on why you think they are problematic?



.

With reptiles, I prefer a two pronged approach for cleaning shared decor. The first is Soak the stick in a bleach solution for 24 hours (I like a 1:10 ratio of bleach to water). Empty the tub and refill with plain water to remove the bleach, which is toxic to lizards. Soak the stick in the water for several hours, drain the tub and fill up with more water. Repeat this procedure several times over the next couple of days.

For wood, after the soak, I like to "bake" the items in my oven, at 350 for about 40 minutes.

Most soap will not kill parasites and all bacteria. Bleach and high temps will, though.

As for your question on exoterra enclosures, while they boldly claim to be designed for ventilation, all this means is they are designed for MORE ventilation than you would get with a glass enclosure and a screen top.

Chameleons need a TON of ventilation, which is why they have been successfully kept in screen enclosures for DECADES, versus moderate success in glass enclosures.

Another problem with the enclosures is they are too small, and because of the lack of appropriate ventilation, you are going to get stagnant air, "hot spots" in your temperature gradient, and the potential for an over saturation and accumulation of moisture from misting, creating one giant bacteria trap. They just can't "air out" like a screen enclosure.

 

[Andee]

Any type of feeder, wild or captive bred can give parasites, which is why you want to have fecals done regularly. If your chameleon is generally healthy, then yes they can fight parasites for years without any problem, before they cause serious issues once their immune systems fall due to age or some sort of sickness. I would personally never use wood or plant decor against in another reptile enclosure. In my opinion your basking temps were too high, especially for a glass enclosure. There is no need to go any higher than 90 for an adult male veiled and I usually don't go higher than 88. Females shouldn't go higher than 83-85. Females preferably will be reduced to being fed 7-9 large crickets every other day once they are 5 months old, no matter how hungry they act. The fact that she ate as much as he did doesn't mean anything really, my Jackson female would eat her body weight (75 grams) in food every day if I let her. Females have an innate need to pig out due to wild instincts. But I do agree your male should have been fed every day. The fact that people on the forum said he shouldn't doesn't mean much if they didn't see he was getting thin. I actually would have fed him a couple wax worms or a super worm or two daily after his crickets to give him extra fat stores. But I don't really follow the norms of chameleon keeping.

 

[Remkon]

All constructive criticism aside... The first cham could have died of age, the second could just have been a bad purchase.

Tho I am interested in your humidity /temperature device, I wonder did you let the humidifier run in to the enclosure?
I can see this becomming a problem, especially in a glass enclosure... Your chameleons would have been fine with misting 4x a day for some minutes since the glass will helo keep humidity in.

Without a necropsy of both animals it will remain guessing what happened.

 

[absolutbill]

To answer a couple of your questions: a URI is an Upper Respiratory Infection. It's characterized by a popping sound as mentioned, and can occur in instances of diminished air flow, where the air is a bit more stagnant. As for you using Exo-Terra enclosures, I don't see a problem with it at all. You said you are located in Ohio which gets COLD! I think that a solid sided cage with some air flow is completely appropriate for your climate. However, I do feel you should have had larger cages for your chams, because that can help to counteract the stagnant air flow situation, as well as to allow the chams more of a temperature gradient.

Your crickets could have been the carrier of the parasites, and it's possible since you mentioned your older cham had always been small and had never had a fecal that he always had a parasite load. As he grew older it became harder and harder for him to fight it off, so his passing may have just been his time. Again, this is just a theory. If he did have parasites they could have been transferred to your female's cage by you inadvertently if you were cleaning one and then the other.

I would also say that a cricket keeper is not a large enough container to keep crickets for 2 chams. I prefer a 10 gal. tank with a lid, and have found that I can house about 500 crickets in there easily with lots of space. When crickets get crowded they tend to walk over each other crushing each other.

You successfully kept a chameleon for 4 years, and I'm guessing this may have been your first one. Sometimes things happen, but a general rule of thumb is to never use anything from the cage of a deceased cham in another cage before determining the cause of death. Since both have been cremated and necropsies can't be performed I'd suggest getting rid of all cage decor, and then cleaning the cage with the bleach solution mentioned above before getting another chameleon. Best of luck - you seem like you have the means and desire to be a good keeper and that's a large part of being successful.

 

[Decadancin]

Not to dispute any responses here (I like most of what has been said ), but do you wash your hands thoroughly between visiting enclosures? Not saying this is the problem, just offering advice.

Sorry for your losses.

 

[jajeanpierre]

@broderp, You've received a lot of advice and some of it is a little on the questionable side.

First, without a necropsy and possibly pathology, you haven't a clue why your animals died. I open up every adult animal that has died and if I don't see something obvious I often have necropsy and pathology done. It is concerning you lost two so close together but since you had them cremated, there isn't anything you can do about it now.

@nightanole suggested your older chameleon was malnourished. While I agree the animal looks pretty rough, nutrition might not be the primary issue. You mentioned that you had previously taken him to the vet because you were not happy with his condition. You said he was only 12 inches long, nose to tip of tail. That is an extremely tiny stunted veiled. An adult veiled is easily twice that size, so something was very amiss with this animal. Perhaps he had an un-diagnosed coccidia infection. Why didn't the vet do a fecal test when you had him in? Most parasites live in harmony with a chameleon but coccidia is one that seems to really knock them down. They grow very poorly with a coccidia infection. A healthy chameleon that isn't compromised by stress should be able to deal with most parasite infections and still thrive. Not always, but parasites in general shouldn't kill your chameleon.

He might have had kidney failure which is very common and is usually caused by dehydration, either a single episode of severe dehydration or the more typical chronic low grade dehydration. It is why I believe every single chameleon in captivity needs an automatic misting system. A dehydrated chameleon looks very thin even when they are not. Perhaps he was dealing with kidney failure the whole time you had him?

Unless you saw evidence of respiratory distress or heard rales (rattling respiratory sounds) or saw some other evidence of respiratory infection such as bubbles and excess salive, I would probably rule that out. Respiratory distress shows itself with open mouthed breathing that can't be explained by thermoregulating because he was too hot; gasping; increased respiration; taking large deep, noticeable breaths; or respiratory distress exhibited when under stress such as from handling. You really should not ever notice a chameleon breathing.

He might have died of basically old age. He wasn't young. When I see pictures of him I am not surprised he died.

Out of curiosity, are you the person who claimed your chameleon loved to be handled? All kinds of things stress chameleons from inappropriate temperatures, too small enclosures, exposure visually to other chameleons to handling. Stress sets off a chain of physiological responses that are internal and that you cannot see. These hormonal events do not go away instantly. One thing stress does is increase the cortisol level which suppresses the immune system. This is why someone on another thread made a comment about people who advocate handling their chameleons also seem to have chameleons that die young.

Your female is more troubling. How long did you have her? Perhaps she was egg bound. She might have had something undetected to you when you bought her. You will never know.

Another possibility is that the temps in the cages spiked for some reason. That is one of the problems with glass--it does trap the heat. By the way, a 24" x 18" x 14" ExoTerra is too small for a veiled.

Regarding your biosecurity, I have a fairly large collection of wild-caught chameleons. I do not reuse plants or cage furnishings--it stays with the chameleon it was bought for. I don't think your biosecurity was the issue. Most illnesses are somewhat lingering and not sudden death. There are viruses that are deadly, contagious and next to impossible to kill even with heat. Baking branches in an oven does not sterilize. It might cut down the bacteria/virus load but it will not sterilize. Boiling them in water will also not kill every pathogen. I wash my hands between cages. My biosecurity is set up around groups of animals. It is rather pointless to worry about biosecurity between two animals that I am leaving together trying to breed.

I hope that is helpful. I'm very sorry for your loss.