Do we gutload too much...?

[JacksJill]

I was just having a conversation related to this the other day. People are seeing cases of gular edema in panthers when feeding a popular all in one supplement endorsed by a top panther breeder. They are also gut loading with a pre made gut load by the same company. I use the supplement and have for years with no problems in my very sensitive Jackson's. I'm thinking the only reason I've been lucky is because I don't use both products and make my own gut load that I vary ingredients batch to batch. I also use it very sparingly.
As has been pointed out we are shooting in the dark or at least very low light when it comes to nutritional needs. That's why variety is key so you hit as many targets as possible with out over blasting one.
I wouldn't advise anyone just starting out to drop supplements unless they have good access to natural outdoor sunlight and a good grasp of gut loading.

 

[jamest0o0]

I used the food pyramid as an example as it is really a simplified way of saying we can’t even agree on caloric needs, let alone the new emphasis on carbohydrates vs fats. Both micro and macronutrient intake has to be a highly personalized data point. As with CA, UVB, and vitamin/mineral supplements, if we want to know how much, or which to give, we can only assume and make educated guesses. Each chameleons metabolic rate, activity level, age, genetics, etc all effect what is needed. Are chameleons dying early due to misunderstood supplementation by some of our best keepers/breeders? Most likely yes. Fact is, we don’t make an effort to understand what we as humans truly need, let alone our chameleons. We would need years worth of data, including detailed husbandry descriptions along with blood test results and autopsies to start to understand any of this. It is confusing and frustrating just thinking about it.

I completely agree. I'm not expecting an answer to this, just thought it'd be an interesting subject to discuss. What you're saying sort of relates to my response to others here requesting peer-reviewed research. There's not going to be many legit studies about chameleon husbandry because there's not much benefit and somebody has to pay for it. Most of what we have is the word from experienced keepers that have had long term success.

 

[jamest0o0]

@JacksJill gular edema was one of the main things on my mind. And I'm pretty sure I know the brand you are talking about. I think there is more to edema than just oversupplementing. I know people that supplement their Parson's pretty often, and even I do probably more than most. I've only had my boy for 5 months, but have had no problems and excellent health so far.

 

[jamest0o0]

I would like to hear from people who do not specifically gut load their feeders and still have healthy chameleons that are alive after many years.
Do we know what minerals and or nutrients are we specifically gut loading for? At times I feel that we are gut loading without knowing what we are suppose to be gut loading with so we just gut load with an abundance of variety of ingredients that we have no idea what for and just to say we do gut load. I have seen a variety of list of ingredients in many recipes and I am in awe that some of these ingredients are "missing" from a chameleon's diet. I will note there is one ingredient, pollen, that does have some validity in terms of flying insects' relationship with flowers but to what extent, does anybody know? For those who do not specifically gut load their feeders and still have healthy chameleons, were your pets ever exposed to wild insects that were exposed to pollen? And of course calcium is another mineral that is important especially for females which I believe is better accomplished by coating the feeders with calcium powder than having the feeders eat minutes amount to have the calcium present in their digestive tracts when consumed.
I recently posted that I feed my feeders commercial vegetarian tortoise food that I have been using to supplement feed my highly prized Burmese star tortoises of which have more than quadrupled in size since I acquired them 10 months ago; somebody replied that this food is "no good at all". I was intrigued by this response and I was hoping for some sort of explanation but the poster did not respond. But is it possible that a food that can quadruple the size of my calcium craving vegetarian tortoises is no good "at all" for gut loading my chameleon's feeders? I have my doubts but I may not be qualified to answer this.

I would like to hear from anyone that doesn't gutload much as well, but I feel any experienced keeper with good husbandry probably gutloads a lot. Just because most with some knowledge on it don't want to risk not doing it. Almost everyone we see with little/no gutloading also has poor husbandry in other aspects that would effect the chameleon.

As for the tortoise diet, I'm not familiar with the ingredients, but the logic of bigger=better isn't always the best. I'm not saying it's anything like this, but we could look at steroids in humans. sure pumping yourself full of them along with high amounts of protein and other nutrients and training will beef you up no doubt. But long term it can easily cause heart, liver, kidney damage. Even if not from the steroids themselves, but the fast increase in size and processing of all those macronutrients.

 

[JacksJill]

As for the gular edema it isn't occurring in entire collections but in enough individuals to be conspicuous. We just don't have much medical history on these guys. Could they have some minor organ damage from a previous infection, episode of dehydration or a genetic variation that makes them less tolerant of higher levels of certain nutrients. They could lack an enzyme necessary for proper metabolism of the nutrient. There are too many variables.
It would be safe to say that reducing the amount/frequency is necessary and wouldn't risk MBD or other deficiency disease. Some chose to drop using the product entirely and use other sources.

 

[jannb]

As for the gular edema it isn't occurring in entire collections but in enough individuals to be conspicuous. We just don't have much medical history on these guys. Could they have some minor organ damage from a previous infection, episode of dehydration or a genetic variation that makes them less tolerant of higher levels of certain nutrients. They could lack an enzyme necessary for proper metabolism of the nutrient. There are too many variables.
It would be safe to say that reducing the amount/frequency is necessary and wouldn't risk MBD or other deficiency disease. Some chose to drop using the product entirely and use other sources.

Every time I’ve had a male chameleon with Gular Edema it was caused by a health issues, such as a bone infection.