Does coloration come more from Dam or Sire?

[Chameleons Northwest]

I was just reading a year 2002 article on a chameleon e-zine. The article was written by a breeder of some reputation. In it he described how breeding blue nosy be panthers led him to believe that, although each parent is half the gene equation, the dam appears to have more influence on color of the offspring than does the sire.

He recommends getting photos of the dam's mature brothers (from a breeder you can trust) before purchasing a female for breeding. That it is actually more important than seeing what the sire looks like.

Any thoughts on this topic? That article was written 5 years ago. What is the current consensus?

I have seen a few breeder sites where they show the sire, the dam, and a brother of the dam when listing babies for sale. But not many breeders offer that. Of course, to have a photo of a mature brother of a dam you would have had to keep that brother until maturity, or get the photo from the person you sold him to.

 

[westcoastchameleons]

I dont know about that. As far as I know, its like humans...Both parents contribute an equal amount of genetics. I dont know how one could make the offspring have a higher likley hood of getting a specific coloration just because of its gender.

Jake

 

[Chameleons Northwest]

I dont know about that. As far as I know, its like humans...Both parents contribute an equal amount of genetics. I dont know how one could make the offspring have a higher likley hood of getting a specific coloration just because of its gender.

Jake

Hmmm. I'm not sure you understood my question. I didn't word it very well.

This one reputable panther chameleon breeder put forth the theory (based on his breeding experience) that the appearance of male offspring is influenced more by the mother's genes than by the father's genes. But, of course, the mother only shows the muted female coloration. In order to get a good handle on what dominant coloration a male chameleon will have, you should look at one of its mother's brothers. For instance, this breeder feels that a Nosy Be chameleon will resemble its mother's brother, more than it will resemble its own father.

If this is true, then, if I desire a certain coloration, when purchasing a baby male chameleon I should be more particular about his mom's bloodlines than his dad's. Furthermore, if I start my own breeding program, I should be more particular about the female I choose than the male.

Because I am fairly new to the world of chameleons, I don't know whether such a theory is old news, well excepted, controversial, hogwash, or whatever.

 

[ChameleonsTree]

Hmmm. I'm not sure you understood my question. I didn't word it very well.

This one reputable panther chameleon breeder put forth the theory (based on his breeding experience) that the appearance of male offspring is influenced more by the mother's genes than by the father's genes. But, of course, the mother only shows the muted female coloration. In order to get a good handle on what dominant coloration a male chameleon will have, you should look at one of its mother's brothers. For instance, this breeder feels that a Nosy Be chameleon will resemble its mother's brother, more than it will resemble its own father.

If this is true, then, if I desire a certain coloration, when purchasing a baby male chameleon I should be more particular about his mom's bloodlines than his dad's. Furthermore, if I start my own breeding program, I should be more particular about the female I choose than the male.

Because I am fairly new to the world of chameleons, I don't know whether such a theory is old news, well excepted, controversial, hogwash, or whatever.

Looks like he understood your question quite well.

 

[Chameleons Northwest]

Looks like he understood your question quite well.

I'm sorry. I thought Jake was talking about the offspring's gender. Now, I see what he was saying- just because she's female, why would her genes override the male's genes. Well, in genetics, there are cases where certain predispositions are given to the offspring from the mother, exclusive of the father.

But, what this breeder was probably observing was the mother's coloration matching up with the father's recessive coloration, and producing a clutch that favored the mother. I don't know anything about this breeder, his stock, or his company. I just came across this article while studying breeding line charts and family progression. Here is the link to the article:
http://www.chameleonnews.com/year2002/march2002/pages/breeding_blues.html

But now something else is starting to click in my brain. I wondered why the f1, f2, f3 thing was done, with offspring mated back to the original sire each time. But now I understand that perhaps with each generation you are strengthening the bloodline and diluting the possibility of recessive surprises showing up in a clutch. Maybe. (To me the line chart made it look like you were weakening the bloodline, due to inbreeding, each time.)

Oh well, just a dumb brain exersize. I know- I'll get a book ! (I am serious about getting a book. I did order the Biology, husbandry, and health care of reptiles- but it probably doesn't cover genetics.)

 

[Jeweledchameleons]

"facinating..."

Genetic are fun

Since the offsprings sex is determined by the male
The function of the Y chromosome is to mainly augment the expression
of the X chromosomes provided by the female. That allows it to be shorter than the more comprehensive X.
To what extent that it contributes to the overall color makup is something to look into.

Methinks the theory is very sound
It's easy to overlook this point when all the attention is focused upon
the flashy peacocks vs the drab female.

For myself, the whole thing is great fun.
You're dealing with so many different genetic influences regarding the expression of color
with half the parents not expressing themselves well as, in half the offspring makes breeding top quality a whole lot more complex.
You're going to have to dig far back into the family lines to get some idea of what the offspring may look like.
and even then, there's going to be a few curveballs thrown around.

 

[stevereecy]

Yeah, check the mother

Just wanted to chime in that it is very important to know the background of the mother whenever possible. I always thought it was interesting that some sellers only show the sire, and not the mother. I am always concerned if there is no information about the mother, and a photo of the mother's brother is the ideal. I can tell you that...from my own observation...if you absolutely know you have a pure female (i.e., f2) and you cross it with a pure male, I swear to you that the offspring are much more colorful than the "ruddy" appearance of animals with "polluted" genes. I believe that it has something to do with the amount of "biological direction" that the offspring put into making those colors. In other words, the offspring are hardwired to make one color, or a specific pattern of color, with no conflicting information. I'll go to my grave believing this...

As far as the genes following the appearance of the female vs. the male...well...I know the breeder you're talking about and I can tell you that his direct observations carry more weight than my own theories. He is a talented breeder. What would be interesting, however, would be to see what the offspring of a mixed morph panthers look like when you know the genetics of both parents. I think that would answer the question fairly well.

Steve

 

[Jeweledchameleons]

This makes sense
especially when you consider that "co-dominance" exists for the determination of color expression.
to get the best purest coloration from any one animal
it has to be "blessed" with duplicate genes from both sides.