dog or cat food deathly?

[SarahChamlove]

So, I had a vet tell me that i should be feeding my crickets dog or cat food after i bring them home from the store. He said to just grind it up put it at the bottom with carrots or water cubes and they will provide extra nutrition for my chameleons.

Before I seen the vet, I fed my crickets with spinach and melons, or bread and potatoes. He told me that I was starving the crickets and that is not enough nutrition for them. And He said that is why My chameleon Earl (who is refusing to eat) is under weight.

so i did what he told me because he breed veiled chameleons for 13 years, i trusted him. and since organic dog or cat does have plant matter and meat product (although high in fat), I thought this was brillant!

I gave a few people on this forum that advice, thinking I was telling them right, and a few others have told me I am wrong (no hard feelings)

So, the discussion begins!
Is Cat or Dog food the wrong thing to feed crickets. I would really like to know why?

 

[randomryan007]

I would say bad due to the high fat content.

 

[dagy24]

I think it's also bad due to high protein content and it's just generally not right for chameleons. It seems like there are a remarkable number of vets and "herpers" out there who I talk to who have absolutely no idea how to take care of a chameleon.

 

[SarahChamlove]

I think it's also bad due to high protein content and it's just generally not right for chameleons. It seems like there are a remarkable number of vets and "herpers" out there who I talk to who have absolutely no idea how to take care of a chameleon.

that just makes me sad because I trusted this guy because of his experience. before I got my two chameleons, i researched as much as possible. I just want the best info on how to take care of my chameleons!

 

[Elizadolots]

I think as long as you mix in other things, like kale, collard greens and stuff, dog or cat food is not a horrible addition to a good gut load. While it's a good food for crickets, dog and cat food is not well rounded enough for a chameleon and when it comes to gut load you need to look past the animal you are feeding to the animal that will eat the animal you are feeding.

 

[kinyonga]

Dog, cat and fish food all have D3 and prEfromed vitamin A in them and those two vitamins are fat soluble and can build up in the system. To have good bones (and for other reasons as well) calcium, D3, prEformed vitamin A and phosphorus need to be in balance. Its hard to balance when we don't know how much the chameleons are getting from the insects. As was said before, they are also high in protein and may lead to gout.

BTW...although spinach is high in calcium it also binds calcium so it would be better to use dandelions, kale, escarole, endive, collards, etc. to feed the crickets along with carrots, squash, zucchini, sweet red peppers, sweet potato, etc.

 

[SarahChamlove]

Okay, that is very informative.

I will take the spinach out of the crickets diet. I often buy collard greens and others that were mentioned for myself, so i can use that instead. And i am going to cut down on the dog food. I do supplement my chameleons with d3 calcium.

It was also recommended to me that i get Reptaid for my male who does not have a quinch for my crickets. Where can I find it and how often should I give it to him?

 

[fluxlizard]

I would say bad due to the high fat content.

I think it's also bad due to high protein content and it's just generally not right for chameleons.

What fat content level and protein content level are appropriate for insects fed to chameleons?

I will take the spinach out of the crickets diet.

Some spinach is actually good to include. Spinach all the time every day is not for the reasons given (calcium binding).

I'm going to enter a few quotes from from the book "The bearded dragon manual" to add to this discussion. To save myself from typing I'm going to omit a few words here and there, but nothing that will alter the intention of the statements. If you have the book you can look it up-

talking about commercial pelleted food-

"All pellets contain relatively little fat. About 10 or 12 percent is the limit...Salad contains even less... In contrast invertebrates contain about 30 to 60 percent fat (<my side note here- this is probably referring to dry or wet content, whichever is appropriate for a comparison with the pellets, so if you see a discrepency in this fat content and something you pull from the web, this is probably why- dry vs wet things come out different and comparing one to the other is like apples to oranges>). This fat is essential for bearded dragon nutrition, providing needed calories for growth, reproduction, and good health, along with essential fatty acids for development of vital tissues, especially brain."

talking about oxalates (spinach and the like)-

"FAQ: My friend told me that spinach and kale are bad for dragons, but mine loves these foods. Can I still feed these greens?

All greens contain substances generally referred to as secondary plant compounds. Some are helpful to animals, and others can be harmful. Two substances most frequently mentioned are oxalates and goitrogens, but there are many other compounds, some more risky than these two. If you avoided every green, fruit, and vegetable that contains a potentially harmful secondary plant compound, there would be nothing left to feed! You can continue to feed spinach and kale to your dragon. Make sure they make up just a moderate part of the overall diet and that you include supplements containing calcium and trace minerals. Don't feed diets of just spinach and kale with no additional supplementation."

"These foods do not have to be avoided entirely, for nutritional deficiencies are risked only when these foods are fed frequently or as the sole source of nutrition without supplementation. Provision of the usual supplements of calcium and trace minerals and offering a varied diet eliminates most risk."

"There are many other secondary plant compounds, and it is unfortunate that oxalates and goitrogens receive more attention than needed, while other substances are ignored. For example, many plants contain substances with hormonelike activity (such as phytoestrogens in soybeans) which may impact reproduction."

And finally, I would like to add that cockroaches have been proven in laboratory setting to control their own protein intake, and maintain consistent percentages of that intake depending on sex (females take in a higher percentage of protein, males more carbs). So, given choices (more than one food), they will choose to eat pretty much the same amount of protein no matter if you are offering a smaller amount of it- as long as there is some food with protein present they will eat more of that and less of the other until they achieve their desired protein intake. And once they meet that, it doesn't matter if you have more protein present and less veggies or whatever- they will always go for the veggies until they feel the need for protein again. I've lost my sources on this, but I have them somewhere in my backup files.

And here is something else I snagged off another forum once-

I've read one article that did a nutrient analysis of Rhyparobia maderae. They offered diets with different amounts of proteins and carbohydrates, but they found that the roaches would still manage to end up with a protein-carbohydrate ratio of 25:75.

"Diet Balancing in the Cockroach Rhyparobia madera: Does Serotonin Regulate This?" by Randy W. Cohen. Journal of Insect Behavior 14:99-111, 2001.]

My philosophy - offer a lot of variety and keep changing things up. Your crickets or roaches are probably going to maintain fairly consistent protein and carb levels and probably fat levels regardless unless you are feeding them a diet they cannot sort and pick through and get what they crave out of. Like gelatin cubes or something.

 

[iLik3LIzards]

The only times its good to use catfood and dog food is when your trying to generate a dubia or crix colony. The high protien content in the dog/cat food allows the insects to grow at a much greater rate and also allows for greater production at a faster rate. But, when you plan on feeding those insects you must gutload them with vegies and such. The high protien in cat/dog food is bad for reptiles.

 

[fluxlizard]

The high protien in cat/dog food is bad for reptiles.

I'm going to ask again since I see this stated so often here on the forums.

What is the desired protein level for insects fed to chameleons?



Also, did you read what I just posted about self regulation of protein content being pretty much a done deal no matter your diet, unless you are feeding something they cannot pick through and self regulate? Which would not be ground up cricket food- it would have to be something like gel or maybe very fine powder.

 

[Ace]

intersting post Fluxlizard...i guess per say "variety is key" but overall how can people choose what "dog/cat food" would be "okay" to get, people might assume any dog/catfood would be fine, but not all cat/dog food products are the same....just curious

 

[fluxlizard]

My comments weren't meant to promote dog food per say, as much as to bring something new to a discussion that has been had a number of times on the forums.

And also to question some of the conclusions that are often parroted.

2 that kind of bug me- if we don't know what the optimal fat and protein levels are for a chameleon's diet, how can we claim a dietary item has too much of it? If fat content well above 12% (perhaps as high as 30 to 60%) is so important for the health of other insectivorous lizards, why would we assume things would be different for chameleons?

And if roaches and other opportunistic feeders like house crickets self-regulate their protein and carbohydrate levels, what are we going to effectively and realistically do about those levels anyway? Many species like crickets and many roaches will simply start eating each other to get the protein they need if it isn't available in the diet they are offered.

I don't have all the answers, but I do have some of the questions.

I think it is human nature to simplify some of this stuff (It is for me anyway) but really there are complex relationships when it comes to nutrition.

The vegetable thing has bothered me for years. People look at a single vegetable item like spinach and think that if it is inappropriate for a complete diet, then it is inappropriate altogether. Nothing could be further from the truth. These items used in moderation add very important nutritional benefits as part of a varied and complete diet.

I agree that not all dog food is made equal. The best advice I could give is that if you are going to use dog food (I do sometimes) look at the nutritional analysis and consider why you are using it, and then look at the rest of the items you are offering the roaches and try to round things out. And consider the brand name. You cannot always believe what is on pet food labels in the united states and the nutritional analysis for that matter, so try to stick with better brands. And don't use it by itself- provide lots of food items including plenty of vegetables at all times to do the rounding out.

The other thing to consider is what you are feeding the insects too-
There may be too much vit a in insects fed much dog food for montane species, the levels may be OK for veileds or panthers.

And the other thing is to consider how much of the diet is made up of feeders fed this way.
If you are feeding some crickets or roaches that have had dog food as a part of their total diet, plus you are feeding some mealworms, plus you are feeding some butterworms, plus you are feeding some locusts, plus you are feeding some silkworms, plus you are feeding some phoenixworms, plus you are feeding this to a veiled who in addition to all that variety has some salad, well the total amount of stuff passed on to the chameleon from the dogfood is going to be very, very small indeed. Compared to a chameleon fed mostly only crickets fed mostly only dog food.

 

[pssh]

Well, hasn't it been shown that diets that are high in proteins are more likely to lead to gout? (That's a good enough reason for me to watch the protein.) However, I would avoid dog/cat food because it contains animal proteins. I would prefer my insects get their protein from spirulina, bee pollen, nuts, etc. But then you have to consider these other sources of proteins and what other things they bring to the table which is why when I use soybean flour and other nuts, I am mindful of how much I add to the gutload. Just my $0.02

 

[SarahChamlove]

I'm going to ask again since I see this stated so often here on the forums.

What is the desired protein level for insects fed to chameleons?



Also, did you read what I just posted about self regulation of protein content being pretty much a done deal no matter your diet, unless you are feeding something they cannot pick through and self regulate? Which would not be ground up cricket food- it would have to be something like gel or maybe very fine powder.

Although I was given the information to just feed my crickets dog or cat food, I still kept a wide varitey. Because I thought about my diet. What I need to eat to maintain my weight and get my blood sugar from dropping.

I get these dog meat loaf things, I put a slice in there. Right now, I have carrots, mango, meat loaf (wet dog food), and lettuce.

And as I stated before, the vet offered this ( before I was just feeding an all veggie diet) because one of my chameleons (Earl) is serverly under weight. He is 4 months and only 6 grams. And my efforts to keep him eating and keep him to gain weight almost is in possible.

So in this situation, is it okay to gutload with dog or cat food?

 

[pssh]

Read my post for my opinions on dog food. Lettuces generally do not have very high nutritional value. This make them, in my opinion, an item that is much lower on my list and should only be a small part of the diet.

http://www.guinealynx.info/diet_vegs.html

Maybe this will help some others when they are choosing which items they wish to gutload with. Check out the other charts too, like the oxalic acid one.

 

[SarahChamlove]

My comments weren't meant to promote dog food per say, as much as to bring something new to a discussion that has been had a number of times on the forums.

And also to question some of the conclusions that are often parroted.

2 that kind of bug me- if we don't know what the optimal fat and protein levels are for a chameleon's diet, how can we claim a dietary item has too much of it? If fat content well above 12% (perhaps as high as 30 to 60%) is so important for the health of other insectivorous lizards, why would we assume things would be different for chameleons?

And if roaches and other opportunistic feeders like house crickets self-regulate their protein and carbohydrate levels, what are we going to effectively and realistically do about those levels anyway? Many species like crickets and many roaches will simply start eating each other to get the protein they need if it isn't available in the diet they are offered.

I don't have all the answers, but I do have some of the questions.

I think it is human nature to simplify some of this stuff (It is for me anyway) but really there are complex relationships when it comes to nutrition.

The vegetable thing has bothered me for years. People look at a single vegetable item like spinach and think that if it is inappropriate for a complete diet, then it is inappropriate altogether. Nothing could be further from the truth. These items used in moderation add very important nutritional benefits as part of a varied and complete diet.

I agree that not all dog food is made equal. The best advice I could give is that if you are going to use dog food (I do sometimes) look at the nutritional analysis and consider why you are using it, and then look at the rest of the items you are offering the roaches and try to round things out. And consider the brand name. You cannot always believe what is on pet food labels in the united states and the nutritional analysis for that matter, so try to stick with better brands. And don't use it by itself- provide lots of food items including plenty of vegetables at all times to do the rounding out.

The other thing to consider is what you are feeding the insects too-
There may be too much vit a in insects fed much dog food for montane species, the levels may be OK for veileds or panthers.

And the other thing is to consider how much of the diet is made up of feeders fed this way.
If you are feeding some crickets or roaches that have had dog food as a part of their total diet, plus you are feeding some mealworms, plus you are feeding some butterworms, plus you are feeding some locusts, plus you are feeding some silkworms, plus you are feeding some phoenixworms, plus you are feeding this to a veiled who in addition to all that variety has some salad, well the total amount of stuff passed on to the chameleon from the dogfood is going to be very, very small indeed. Compared to a chameleon fed mostly only crickets fed mostly only dog food.

Sorry I did need see this post before, I totally agree with a well rounded diet. As a human, we want a rounded diet to maintain are figure. I mean i spend more money on health foods then i do on clothes, but that's neither here or there.

Everyone needs to understand, that i do give the crickets, as well as my chameleons other option

Funny story, actually, My bf bought me a yellow orchid, and my small chameleon eat 2 out of the 5 flowers. He also loves mango too. He mainly rubs his nose in it, but i think he like the smell.

Like I mentioned before, in this post and others, I am trying to keep my guy alive! I'm trying really hard to keep the diet mixed up because he is lacking in so much because he refuses to eat

 

[SarahChamlove]

Read my post for my opinions on dog food. Lettuces generally do not have very high nutritional value. This make them, in my opinion, an item that is much lower on my list and should only be a small part of the diet.

http://www.guinealynx.info/diet_vegs.html

Maybe this will help some others when they are choosing which items they wish to gutload with. Check out the other charts too, like the oxalic acid one.

Thank you, I really appreciate it!

 

[fluxlizard]

Well, hasn't it been shown that diets that are high in proteins are more likely to lead to gout?

In herbivores yes.

In insectivores- I actually do not know because I haven't found anything relevant and in past threads discussing this issue that I have followed, herbivores are always cited, and veterinary recommendations for herbivores rather than studies are always cited (by which I mean some veterinarian online puts up something about feeding iguanas or tortoises too much animal protein could cause gout). For some reason what is stated for herbivores is then stated as "proof" that high protein is bad for insectivores.

That said, I'm pretty confident that at certain levels, protein may cause gout in insectivores.

So, I'll repeat my earlier question- what are the optimal protein percentages for insects fed to chameleons?

If we don't know that level we are just speculating about whether a certain level of protein will cause gout or not.

Furthermore, did you notice the stuff I explained in my last two posts about protein levels being self-regulated by the roaches? There isn't a lot that we can do to alter those levels realistically because they will select high protein food items if available (or each other if not) until they reach their desired protein intake, and then they will select other food items (if available) and keep their protein level fairly constant.

Personally, my belief is that most gout in insectivores is probably more often than not caused by chronic low levels of mild dehydration. Dehydration causes gout in carnivores, herbivores and insectivores, and chameleons mostly come from very humid environments with lots of dew and rain. 30 seconds with a mister 6 times a day or a couple times a day a minute or two with a hand pump probably probably isn't going to stimulate enough water intake for some individuals, and mild dehydration may not even have visible symptoms. Until too late when the animal starts to crash and gets gout or kidney failure or something.

I am of course, speculating, not asserting.

I would avoid dog/cat food because it contains animal proteins

IMO this is probably more valid than the idea about too much protein because of the self-regulating nature of the feeder insects when it comes to protein content.

I really don't know much about how this relates to insectivores or not, only that insectivores often occasionally take in animal protein, but how hard that is on them vs how it much it may benefit them I do not know. I also do not have a good enough understanding of the changes that occur to the animal protein after being eaten by the insect occur before the insect is eaten by the lizard. In other words, I would guess that an insect eating animal protein and then the insect being eaten by the lizard is probably a bit different than the lizard eating the animal protein directly. Do you have any more information about one vs the other?

 

[sdheli420]

ya i never understood why people did use dog or cat food ( its for dogs and cats) ive always bought powdered "cricket gut load" or "cricket food"..and then just supplement them with some fruits and veggies.. sorry to hear about the misinformation..this is definatley the best place to learn..

 

[pssh]

Yes, but do all insects regulate the protein level in this way? And if you are only feeding X, X, and X foods the insects can only get X, X, and X nutrients and what not. So, suppose you are feeding a high protein diet, if the roaches cannot get to another food that does not have such high protein, they have no choice in the matter (unless they have some way to solve this problem that i am unaware of.)

I can look for more info.