Dull colours?
- Thread starter Lala0
- Start date
chefboyardee
Member
gutloading w/ DF might help; carotenoids are one of a few compounds that cant be produced by species in the animal kingdom and DF has a lot of ingredients high in them
what do you mean by 'dull' though? Even when fired up/out in the sun? or just when they're relaxed? maybe some free-range time outside might help?
what do you mean by 'dull' though? Even when fired up/out in the sun? or just when they're relaxed? maybe some free-range time outside might help?
ataraxia
Avid Member
Could possibly be from a few things.
1. Illness: could be infection, organ malfunction, etc. Id get a fecal done asap to rule parasites out.
2. Improper temps: not able to get warm enough. Test the site with a digital therm. Make sure there is no wind blowing on the cage from A/C, etc...
3. Not happy with something in his surroundings. New animal like a cat or another lizard he can see. Dark will show that he is neutral and doesnt want a fight.
4. Has he shed recently?
Gut loading is always a great practice and since the animal is in good health will shows its best colors. Im not convinced any gut load out here will enhance colors in chameleons.
1. Illness: could be infection, organ malfunction, etc. Id get a fecal done asap to rule parasites out.
2. Improper temps: not able to get warm enough. Test the site with a digital therm. Make sure there is no wind blowing on the cage from A/C, etc...
3. Not happy with something in his surroundings. New animal like a cat or another lizard he can see. Dark will show that he is neutral and doesnt want a fight.
4. Has he shed recently?
Gut loading is always a great practice and since the animal is in good health will shows its best colors. Im not convinced any gut load out here will enhance colors in chameleons.
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tkilgour
Member
Very good point. There is a lot of information out there on how and why certain foods aid in color enhancement, blood flow and circulation, and overall health.
Im not convinced any gut load out here will enhance colors in chameleons.
Time for more research.
Why wouldn't a chameleon's color and appearance be affected by certain things they ingest? It happens in many other animals around the globe. For example, birds get their brilliant color from the things they eat. Flamingos in the wild get their color from carotenoids (red and orange) pigments found in small crustaceans. If they do not receive these carotenoids in captivity their pink coloring turns to white. A second example is reef fish, many fish need to consume various species of marine algae, like blue / green algae to keep their health and vivid color.
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chameleonowner32
Avid Member
Ive been meaning to buy some dinofuel for Rex. just dont ever get the right money amount on a card to order it.
ataraxia
Avid Member
\Time for more research.
I dont want to debate this as it is pointless
. I would like to learn though...With my need to research. Please point me to where your gut load (Or even any of the ingredients in your gut load) has been studied to enhance colors in "chameleons" specifically or for this fact please point me to a study done on "Any" gut load enhancing colors on a chameleon. I know you manufacture this product and have to have some sort of marketing plan to sell it. Yes, "Other" animals colors can be skewed. Even us humans with excessive carotenids will get a yellow/orange tinge to our skin. I have used your product, bug burger among other recipes with no true color enhancement. Had i seen a difference. I would be stating something different
tkilgour
Member
I definitely didn't just make this up for marketing purposes. I also will acknowledge that products that say "color enhancer" are not a magic bullet. However, a lot of research and development went into the DinoFuel products. As I am sure tons of RD went into Bug Burger. There are many scientific studies on carotenoids and their effects on color enhancement. There is no debate that birds, fish, and crustaceans need carotenoids for color. In fact, Carotenoids are responsible for coloration in many animals and this color is often used in courtship as a signal of health of the individual. Carotenoids are also believed to enhance vision and immune systems in some animals. At the moment, we are currently working a on study directly related to chameleons. The interest in chameleons and the idea of proper gutloading has only really taken off in the past several years. Therefore, there has not been enough funding for direct research on chameleons.
Either way, here is just a small list of scientific studies and published research that were completed on carotenoids. In (2000), The Institute of Medicine conducted a study on natural carotenoids, etc. The study was completed by The Food and Nutrition Board: Dietary Reference Intakes for Vitamin C, Vitamin E, Selenium, and Carotenoids.
Martinez-Padilla, J., Mougeot, F., Perez-Rodrigues, L., & Bortolotti, G. R.
(2007). Nematode parasites reduce carotenoid-based signalling in male
red grouse, iguanas, and finches. Biology Letters, 3, 161–164.
Murray, F. G. (1934). Carotenoids, Pigmentation, sunlight and nutritional disease.
Peters, A., Denk, A. G., Delhey, K., & Kempenaers, B. (2004). Carotenoid based bill color as an indicator of immunocompetence and sperm
performance in male mallards. Journal of Evolutionary Biology, 17,
1111–1120.
Prahl, S. (1998). Tabulated
American Anthropologist, 36, 438–448.
Alaluf, S., Heinrich, U., Stahl, W., Tronnier, H., & Wiseman, S. (2002).
Dietary carotenoids contribute to normal human skin color and UV
photosensitivity. Journal of Nutrition, 132, 399–403.
Seifter, E., Rettura, G., & Levenson, S. M. (1981). Carotenoids and cell
mediated immune responses. In: The Quality of Foods
Either way, here is just a small list of scientific studies and published research that were completed on carotenoids. In (2000), The Institute of Medicine conducted a study on natural carotenoids, etc. The study was completed by The Food and Nutrition Board: Dietary Reference Intakes for Vitamin C, Vitamin E, Selenium, and Carotenoids.
Martinez-Padilla, J., Mougeot, F., Perez-Rodrigues, L., & Bortolotti, G. R.
(2007). Nematode parasites reduce carotenoid-based signalling in male
red grouse, iguanas, and finches. Biology Letters, 3, 161–164.
Murray, F. G. (1934). Carotenoids, Pigmentation, sunlight and nutritional disease.
Peters, A., Denk, A. G., Delhey, K., & Kempenaers, B. (2004). Carotenoid based bill color as an indicator of immunocompetence and sperm
performance in male mallards. Journal of Evolutionary Biology, 17,
1111–1120.
Prahl, S. (1998). Tabulated
American Anthropologist, 36, 438–448.
Alaluf, S., Heinrich, U., Stahl, W., Tronnier, H., & Wiseman, S. (2002).
Dietary carotenoids contribute to normal human skin color and UV
photosensitivity. Journal of Nutrition, 132, 399–403.
Seifter, E., Rettura, G., & Levenson, S. M. (1981). Carotenoids and cell
mediated immune responses. In: The Quality of Foods
chefboyardee
Member
if you want a more direct study, Bagnara et al (oxford journals, "Comparative Anatomy and Physiology of Pigment Cells in Nonmammalian Tissues" '98) did a study where they fed frogs carotene restricted crickets; the absence of the red filter supplied to their chromatophores by the carotenoids turned the frogs blue instead of green
Contrary to that, Fitze et al (plos one, "Carotenoid-Based Colours Reflect the Stress Response in the Common Lizard") suggest that carotenoid based color is dependent on the animal's overall health, and the presence of an elevated stress response will change the blood carotenoid concentration, not ingestion.
more likely than not, its a mix of the two; carotenoids have to be ingested and are normally not produced naturally by species in the animal kingdom, so reduced levels will effect health negatively and the stress response will eventually effect color. Im not entirely sure if a diet high compounds used to create pigments will make a reptile more colorful than he was genetically designed/born to be... but supplementing its diet is necessary to reach its max color potential, especially in the fixed micro-climate created by our terrariums
Contrary to that, Fitze et al (plos one, "Carotenoid-Based Colours Reflect the Stress Response in the Common Lizard") suggest that carotenoid based color is dependent on the animal's overall health, and the presence of an elevated stress response will change the blood carotenoid concentration, not ingestion.
more likely than not, its a mix of the two; carotenoids have to be ingested and are normally not produced naturally by species in the animal kingdom, so reduced levels will effect health negatively and the stress response will eventually effect color. Im not entirely sure if a diet high compounds used to create pigments will make a reptile more colorful than he was genetically designed/born to be... but supplementing its diet is necessary to reach its max color potential, especially in the fixed micro-climate created by our terrariums
Lala0
Member
haha sorry for the later reply, i didn't realise this conversation was going to get so technical!
On the day i posted this thread i did a massive clean out of his cage and switched it round a little and since then he has started looking a little brighter, so thinking it could have been something he really disliked in his cage.
I will try firing him up now!
I will try to get him out in the sun however he is quite a nervous cham and haven't done this with him so far as i don't want to freak him out!
On a side not to tkilgour (Tom) I ordered the Dino fuel from you a few days ago, will it have been sent yet? Also how long should it take to ship to the UK?
On the day i posted this thread i did a massive clean out of his cage and switched it round a little and since then he has started looking a little brighter, so thinking it could have been something he really disliked in his cage.
I will try firing him up now!
I will try to get him out in the sun however he is quite a nervous cham and haven't done this with him so far as i don't want to freak him out!
On a side not to tkilgour (Tom) I ordered the Dino fuel from you a few days ago, will it have been sent yet? Also how long should it take to ship to the UK?
tkilgour
Member
Yep, Thanks! Your order was sent out. Shipping to the UK can take 10 - 20 days. It really depends on customs.
junglefries
Avid Member
colors may improve
Let's quit bickering and help lala0 out. i had a blue bar i rescued who was as black as a crayon. after getting him outside and changing around his interior to what he liked, he came to be beautiful. great red on his face with the brightest blue dots on top of his head. he prefered umbrella over hibiscus plants. wanted more horizontal branches closer to the light. liked silkworms, hornedworms, & superworms more than crickets. try anything and watch his behavior. you'll know what is helping and one day you will wake up to "who replaced my cham?".
Let's quit bickering and help lala0 out. i had a blue bar i rescued who was as black as a crayon. after getting him outside and changing around his interior to what he liked, he came to be beautiful. great red on his face with the brightest blue dots on top of his head. he prefered umbrella over hibiscus plants. wanted more horizontal branches closer to the light. liked silkworms, hornedworms, & superworms more than crickets. try anything and watch his behavior. you'll know what is helping and one day you will wake up to "who replaced my cham?".
Lala0
Member
Just thought I'd do a quick update, my chams color is coming back! He loves the new set up much more and his greens and blues are coming back, hopefully the reds and yellows will return too!
With the anticipated arrival of some dino fuel his colors should be back to their former glory, thanks for the help everyone
With the anticipated arrival of some dino fuel his colors should be back to their former glory, thanks for the help everyone
