Dusting feeders with... gutload...?

[jamest0o0]

So a lot of dry gutload are like a powder almost(I use bug buffet). Could it be beneficial to dust our feeders in this? We rely so much on gutloading our insects, why not just cover them with some too before we feed off? Things like bee pollen, honey, spirulina, kelp, etc could easily stick to them.

 

[Beelinn]

I'd like to know this as well. I would wonder about the taste of it, but can only imagine that it would taste like the bugs themselves...

 

[Katacara]

I have also wondered about this, and am very curious to know the answer!

 

[jamest0o0]

In the wild, part of their nutrition comes from the substrate and other random particles that sticks to the bugs they eat.

 

[Andee]

Certain things they won't get the nutrients from correctly because they need it partially digested by the insects in order to receive complete benefits. But for those days when we have a naked feeders or something I don't see what's wrong with it. We don't need to dust with plain calcium everyday. A few times a week, and then the days we don't we can dust with some of the things you mentioned. Some might not taste good so gotta remember that. In my opinion it won't cause harm and might do good so might as well test it out?

 

[nightanole]

https://www.fullthrottlefeeders.com/product-page/bug-buffet

Ill be honest here, please pick out the fruits and veggies that are digestible buy a veiled?

As andee pointed out, the point of the gut load is to be partially digested by the feeder, or to complete the feeders profile(You dont want to feed your pet T-rex humans with an iron or vit-c deficiency).

I break down "gut loads" into 2 categories.

1) They complete the diet of the feeder. This seems to be what almost all modern gut loads are. The bugs are not lacking any nutrients and are healthy.
2) Old school gut loads that will kill the feeder after awhile. These are normally high calcium mixes. Most of our feeders have horrible calcium to phosphorus ratios. The sad truth is, if you feed a bug a high calcium diet, you do not get high calcium bugs. You either get less bugs, or dead bugs. Calcium is a poison to insects. So thats what we do, we feed them a high calcium mix, which is impossible to digest, it stuffs them up since its not going to come out the other end, and we have an internally powdered bug for the cham.

Keep that last sentence in your mind. What goes in one end of an animal, is either going to get; oxidized, stored, or come out the other end undigested. So if you cover your feeder with powderized treenuts, seeds, and bee pollen, it may just come out the other end along with the chitin of the bug.

 

[Andee]

How were the old gutloads that were high calcium made? I can't figure out how mine is different...? Because all my insects live perfectly fine on it for prolonged periods and it still has relatively high calcium load naturally and I also add some supplements.

 

[nightanole]

How were the old gutloads that were high calcium made? I can't figure out how mine is different...? Because all my insects live perfectly fine on it for prolonged periods and it still has relatively high calcium load naturally and I also add some supplements.

Honestly the original formulas from the 1990's appear to be lost to the ether.

But there are several facts:
Regardless of what you feed an insect, if you grind it up with an empty stomach, all the same samples of the same species will be the same. A cricket can be raises off of cornmeal or $100 a pound "gut load", feed the samples 2-3 days of just water(or remove the digestive track), and they will all have the same nutritional profile.

A starved meal/super worm and a "full" worm will have a 10% weight variance, so up to 10% of a worms weight can be "gut load". Who knows what the dry weight of the gut load is. A cricket/dubia is i believe 25%.

So for your high calcium diet you are feeding your feeders, 10-25% of it could be entering your cham as gut load. Going over the math, an "unloaded cricket as a calcium to phosphorus ratio of 1:4. A cricket feed a high calcium diet, the highest without killing it within 48 hours(8-10% calcium), can have a ratio of 1:2. Crickets fed 15% calcium diets die within a few days. A healthy reptile needs to be fed a calcium to phosphorus ratio of 1:1-2:1.


So your high calcium "gut load" is doing something, its providing up to half of the calcium needed to make your feeders "proper".

 

[jamest0o0]

@nightanole Thanks for the responses, I didn't mean to say I wasnt going to gutload my bugs and instead dust them with the food. Id gutload them as usual, but was just wondering if they were dusted with it, would that benefit the cham at all(which you've guys answered). So why can a cham digest a bug, but not ground up nuts, veggies, seeds, etc? I assume it's because they're built to absorb nutrients from the gut of an insect?

Also not sure what you mean by pick out fruits and veggies for a veiled?

 

[nightanole]

@nightanole Thanks for the responses, I didn't mean to say I wasnt going to gutload my bugs and instead dust them with the food. Id gutload them as usual, but was just wondering if they were dusted with it, would that benefit the cham at all(which you've guys answered). So why can a cham digest a bug, but not ground up nuts, veggies, seeds, etc? I assume it's because they're built to absorb nutrients from the gut of an insect?

Also not sure what you mean by pick out fruits and veggies for a veiled?

The bug will extract the vits and minerals from the nuts etc, and break down the harder to digest stuff later. So its that Goldilocks time when the bug has extracted the goodies, but hasnt oxidized them. That is what the cham gets out of the gut load. Anything else just end up coming out the other end of the cham along with the chitin.


As for veiled, they can be fed high calcium fruits and veg directly. I just hand out the approved iguana society list of staples, and tell them pick a few. Im still surprised blue berries is not on their list...

 

[jamest0o0]

So how do chameleons get minerals in the wild? I've heard eating the soil?

 

[nightanole]

So how do chameleons get minerals in the wild? I've heard eating the soil?

They dont eat just one or 2 kinds of bugs, and the bugs they do eat, eat different things throughout the year. Its takes MONTHS before a vit or mineral deficiency shows up. On top of that only 1% of chams ever live long enough to have 2 egg laying seasons. In Madagascar i think it was 1% ever live long enough to see their eggs hatch. Its sad, but you could consider their lives "annuals".

 

[Andee]

It's true, sadly, a lot of chams don't live long in the wild like they do in captivity. Their lives are unnaturally long in captivity which is why we get so many issues in so many ways and also because we keep them so differently. It's probably also a reason we can't study how keeping them captive like we do could be different if we mimicked a bit more like wild. Because honestly very few chameleons live to be 7+ years old in the wild. And it's not because of most illnesses (unless it was like parasites for some reason) it's because they get eaten, they get hurt somehow then become easy prey, and also because egg laying is so extremely hard on the female system. It's not easy for chams, which is why it's so important to both genders to pass on the genes and why they do some stupid things to do so.