EMERGENCY - Kepler having inner ear problems?

[mons00n]

Kepler was 100% normal today; he ate and drank like normal. In the middle of the night I hear a noise from his cage and go over to investigate. I find that he's fallen over in his sleep, turning the room lights on here's what it looked like (enhanced brightness):



He wasn't moving so I decided to try and help him upright himself. He wasn't too happy about it and resisted heavily, but I noticed something was off. I turned his light on and lelt him get a adjusted for a few minutes...then took him out and held him. He started moving around but he was leaning and moving only to his left for some reason. Here's a video of him doing it:
http://youtu.be/qQ9rLksjncc

When I put him back in the cage he grabbed onto a vine, but corkscrewed around the vine as he moved along it, only moving to his left the entire time. Needless to say I'm worried sick and have no idea what might be wrong or what I can do. Unfortunately it's the weekend so his Dr. wont be available until Monday/Tuesday. Has anyone experienced an issue like this or know what may be wrong and how I can help him?

He's fallen back asleep...hanging from a branch clinging to some leafs. I'm hoping to wake up tomorrow and find that he's perfectly fine. Is this something they do if they're suddenly woken up? It's just odd that he fell over in his sleep, that leads me to believe something else may be wrong. Thanks so much for your time.

Here's the help sheet:
Chameleon Info: malle Blue bar Amilobe, just over 1 year, been in my care since he was about 1.5 months old.
Handling - I handle him a few times a week. he's very calm about it.
Feeding - feeding him crickets and dubia roaches. 3-5 crickets or 2-4 roaches. Dusted with repashy calc+ at every feeding. Gutloading with cricket crack, collard greens, and bug burger.
Supplements - repashy calc +
Watering - aquazamp - every other hour for 30 seconds. twice a day (one morning one night) for 2 minutes. I do see him drinking.
Fecal Description - most recent dropping was gargantuan. brown with white urate, a slight amount of orange. He was tested for parasites about 6 months ago and was clean.
History - He had issues grabbing his legs back in August of last year (link to thread). Ever since I upgraded his cage and improved gutloading he has had ZERO issues with it.

Cage Info:
Cage Type - large screen cage 30Lx18Wx36H
Lighting - 60w house bulb for basking (~85F), reptisun 5.0UVB bulb ~5 months old. Lights on at 8am, off at 8pm.
Temperature - basking spot ~85F, other areas ~78 - measured with digital thermometer.
Humidity - humidity varies throughout the day since I live in the desert. It ranges from 30-80%. Maintained with live plant and aquazamp. Measured with digital humidity gauge.
Plants - large umbrella plant I've had for almost a year now.
Placement - right outside of my door in the loft. Same place it's been his whole life. Cage top is around 70" above the floor.
Location - las vegas

Current Problem - see above.

 

[Elizadolots]

My first thought was that this is what my dog looked like the night she had a seizure cluster....at one point she could only walk in a circle, for the rest of the time she had that lean with the head, walk in that direction thing going....

It's probably completely wrong to try to relate a mammal to a reptile, it's just the first thing I thought when I saw the video.

I have no idea if chameleons can have seizure disorders or if they can be treated for them (if the drug regime is the same I pity you...we have to chop standard pills into quarters because our dog only weighs 8 pounds...for a chameleon you'd practically need a piece of dust).

It's possible this was a one time event. It's great that you've recorded it. If he seems fine tomorrow, then don't stress overly. Make an appointment with the vet and send the video to him ahead of time.

 

[Sterlingcham]

Okay I'm not vet or reptile specialist but I do know a few things from some college courses I took and am taking on herpetology as I am very fascinated by reptiles and amphibians... Anyways back on subject in some of the studies I did or researched on chameleons I saw a few pics/video of the same odd behavior and ass such u might want to check for a toe infection in his back left leg as that is the one in your video I saw that he was not moving as much as the others it also could be a break or sever muscle stain in the back left leg as I have seen those as well but it also could be seizures as I am almost very positive that Chams can have them and that did look as if he was confused,disoriented,and repeating one movement which would be his left word walk and clumsiness is also a sign of seizures. My expressed advice is to vet visit ASAP and in the mean time put padding in his cage at the bottom incase he falls a to not procure more dmg.

 

[Olimpia]

I just know that chameleons can have seizures, but I don't know anything else about it. I've had a few vets mention it in conversations so I know it happens, but I don't know anything more. An experienced vet may be the best thing right now. I don't see anything in his husbandry that would lead to anything in particular, so it may just be one of those unexpected, bad-luck conditions that happen to all of us.

How great of you for having recorded it, it should help a professional tremendously.

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

Falling at night happens. My veiled has done that a lot because he sleeps somewhat precariously. Other people have had their chams fall at night and then they flail and run frantically because they can't see and they're scared. My cockatiels used to do this a lot. They lose balance when they're sleeping fall and then fly into the bars frantically until you turn on a light but even then it takes them a while to calm down. In the meantime they act very disoriented and have unusual behavior. You have to think from their perspective: they are a prey animal that only sees well during the day and movement at night attracts predators. So imagine being fast asleep then you fall off your branch when you can't see and you don't know what might have caused you to fall. They are thinking a predator that they can't see is about to eat them. I'd run around stupidly too! If that's what it was he should be fine in the morning.

I highly doubt it was a seizure as that is exceedingly rare in reptiles. Let us know how he does.

 

[mons00n]

He woke up about an hour before I had to leave for work, I observed him as much as possible while getting ready and he seemed fine. I'm mainly concerned because this has never happened before and it seemed like he couldn't move right. He leaned left and walked in a circle to the left which is completely uncharacteristic of anything he's ever done. He usually stretches out and moves a little during sleep, but never to the point where he falls over. I've also had to transport him once or twice in the middle of the night and at least one of those times involved me waking him up; he was confused and slow, but never balance issues.

I'll take him out when I get home today and report back with how he responds. Thanks for the help and ideas.

 

[Elizadolots]

Monsoon, have you been able to examine his leg as Sterlingcham suggested? That seems like an easy check and makes sense.

As my husband almost died from something that was "exceedingly rare" for someone his age, I don't buy into the theory those possibilities should be ignored.

Checking around I found an "All Experts" response which suggests some sorts of specialty lighting (blinking, motion) can cause seizures in reptiles. Do you have anything like that in the room (or is there such a light coming in through a window?) that would meet that definition?

One thing I do know about seizures....they can be a one time thing or a once in a great while type thing. At least with my dog the vet said "one seizure does not an emergency create"...in fact, he said unless she had more than one seizure in a month, he wouldn't suggest any medical intervention...we were advised to just keep her safe (and ourselves...there's always a bite danger) through the process.

If it happens again, a vet visit is probably in order.

 

[mons00n]

Monsoon, have you been able to examine his leg as Sterlingcham suggested? That seems like an easy check and makes sense.

All his legs seem pretty normal. He was up and about when I got home yesterday and seemed 100% normal. I took him out for a while until he decided to poop on me =(.

Checking around I found an "All Experts" response which suggests some sorts of specialty lighting (blinking, motion) can cause seizures in reptiles. Do you have anything like that in the room (or is there such a light coming in through a window?) that would meet that definition?

I do actually. His cage is adjacent to my reef tank, which occasionally has a storm (simulated lightning). The odd thing is that this all happened at night during his sleep when the aquarium lights were off.

One thing I do know about seizures....they can be a one time thing or a once in a great while type thing. At least with my dog the vet said "one seizure does not an emergency create"...in fact, he said unless she had more than one seizure in a month, he wouldn't suggest any medical intervention...we were advised to just keep her safe (and ourselves...there's always a bite danger) through the process.

If it happens again, a vet visit is probably in order.

This sounds like good advice. I'll just keep an eye on him and if something like this happens again I'll start to get concerned. Again thanks to everyone for their replies!

 

[Elizadolots]

His cage is adjacent to my reef tank, which occasionally has a storm (simulated lightning). The odd thing is that this all happened at night during his sleep when the aquarium lights were off.

I don't know enough about seizures to know if visual triggers cause immediate results. I'll see if I can search around on that. If it were my chameleon, I think I would try to block his ability to see the reef tank. Maybe you can put something opaque on that side of the cage.

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

Checking around I found an "All Experts" response which suggests some sorts of specialty lighting (blinking, motion) can cause seizures in reptiles. Do you have anything like that in the room (or is there such a light coming in through a window?) that would meet that definition?

The "expert" is a lady who owns 3 iguanas and 2 leopard geckos. Oh and she was a vet tech (so was I when I was 17). That's it as far as credentials go. I don't find that very trustworthy.

It doesn't make any sense that something that wasn't even on would have caused a trigger effect that's not even documented in reptiles as far as I know. If it was a seizure he would most likely have fallen off of his branch because they lose control of everything. Seizures in reptiles are usually metabolic in nature from electrolyte imbalances. Notable with MBD and low calcium or high phosphorus. Either that or they are something very unusual (like brain abscess). And vestibular activity (circling) does not mean it was a seizure. I just don't want you to get all worked up thinking he had a seizure when there is really nothing to indicate that. A seizure isn't something that is only a second long and done. They are at least several seconds long. If you went over immediately and found him alert and awake then the most likely explanation is that he fell over in his sleep. Mine have done that plenty of times. Sometimes they get freaked out by it and sometimes they don't. He was disoriented when you took him out, which is not all that unexpected. His half awake brain was just telling him "run away, run away, run away". Since he was fine the next morning I doubt it was anything serious. If you want to pursue it further you can have bloodwork done to check electrolytes. But if it were me I would just keep an eye on him. If it happens again and you actually see seizure-like activity, or if he has other problems or behavioral abnormalities during the day then maybe you can start considering something may be wrong. But one isolated very temporary instance is not anything to be overly worried about, and it certainly doesn't indicate a seizure disorder (even in mammals). That is my professional opinion.

 

[Elizadolots]

If it was a seizure he would most likely have fallen off of his branch because they lose control of everything.

In the seizures I've witnessed there is immediate, extreme muscle contraction. I would expect an animal that was holding something to hold it tighter. Seizures vary in length. One could easily be over in the time it took someone to get out of bed and go across the room.

I don't see that suggesting prevention of possible problems--even if very unlikely--is causing a panic. The OP seems to understand that this might be something that never happens again and is only a cause for concern if it's repeating.

The video is just suggestive of a seizure. It's not just the walking in circles, it's the lean of the head. It looks almost like the animal can only see out of the "lead" eye. I've witnessed quite a few seizures and that is exactly what I saw in the immediate minutes after the seizures.

The amount of information available about any reptile medical issue is a function of how many reptiles with the problem have been seen by vets. As getting vet care for captive reptiles is fairly new as a concept and not at all common, conditions which occur rarely will, by definition, not be well documented. Really rare conditions may not even have been recorded by a vet, but that does not mean they do not occur.

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

They do occur, although rarely. I'm not saying they never do. This does not appear to be a seizure in my opinion based on the evidence provided, and I have seen quite a few seizures myself. One seizure is not necessarily a cause for concern even if that was what it was. You said that yourself. Had you not been the first person to comment and say seizure I doubt anyone else would have jumped to that conclusion. I just don't want the OP to be convinced of something that there is poor evidence for because that leads to problems in itself.

 

[Elizadolots]

Seizures was not the only suggestion made (you suggested he fell and just ran around stupidly). Note that I said:

It's probably completely wrong to try to relate a mammal to a reptile, it's just the first thing I thought when I saw the video.

I have no idea if chameleons can have seizure disorders

That is hardly saying "it's a seizure".

I happened to be first to reply, but even if I hadn't I would have made the same connection to the behavior I've seen following a seizure. Sharing experiences is what we do here. And, I fail to see how experience is "poor" evidence.

You know what? We've presented our opinions to the OP. He can judge them.

I am going to share a story (unrelated to chameleons) with you because I think it could be helpful to you as a new Vet.

8 years ago my father had heart surgery. He came out of the anesthesia well, very alert and aware. By the next day he was confused and delusional. This continued. He didn't recognize people. He was unable to balance, unable to control his bowels. A geriatric specialist was called in and one by one drugs were taken off the "okay to dispense" list that the nurses use...the situation continued to be bad. Finally, because it was the last thing left, Tylenol was taken off the list. They had been giving him 625mg doses every 4 hours. Within 24 hours he was lucid, aware, able to stand and walk and control his bowels.

2 years later he was admitted with a broken hip. I asked that he not be given Tylenol. I was informed I was wrong: Everyone knows that Tylenol is harmless. It's given to babies after all.

I pulled out my medical power of attorney and laid down the law...things went well until he was in pain one day (constipated...not good with a broken hip) and they gave him a drug which contained Tylenol (apparently they thought that didn't count). He became delusional.

Just this February he broke his pelvis. I said "don't give him Tylenol." They said "Oh, is he sensitive? Some people just can't take it! Thank you for warning us."

In 8 years we went from "Everyone knows 625mg of Tylenol every 4 hours is safe" to "Everyone knows you never give more than 500mg of Tylenol a day and some people shouldn't take it at all."

How did that change happen? It happened because every time someone like my Dad had a bad reaction it got noted and put in the records...when the records got big enough it got put in the literature and when there was enough literature it got put on the warning labels.

But, 8 years ago my father had a negative reaction to Tylenol. The fact that the medical community did not, then, accept that such a thing was possible did not make it real.

The absence of information on a particular medical issue with regards to Reptiles is due, in part, to the fact that Reptiles going to the Vet is a new and still uncommon phenomenon.

Say a condition only occurs in 1 in 1,000 animals. How many vets see 1,000 different chameleons in their entire careers?

The book on chameleon medical care has not been written yet. I'm quite sure you are going to be a big part of writing that book and I'm very glad that there are excited young Vets like you who care about chameleons to work on that book. But, it has not been written yet, it's barely been begun. Just because something isn't already in the book does not mean it's impossible or even unlikely because this book barely has a title page.

 

[Sterlingcham]

Honestly both of your input is great and informational it gives him alot of questions I ask the vet when he takes him in if he needs to .... So both of u have no need to argue as it is out of your hands but in the persuite of knowledge and all that is chameleon care I will clarify without a reason of a doubt that seizures do happen in all herps even though chameleons are not as researched but not as much has been accounted or written about I do know atleast a couple vets that have delt with seizures in chameleons and have read actually quite a few case logs and health charts when a Cham seemed to be showing signs of seizure like behavior I am not saying that all those cases I read about were 100% seizures I know atleast 3 of them were. As for what the OP should do is up to him we can only give info of knowledge we have learned or gained from experience and then options of what he can do and questions he can ask the rest is up to him/her

I received all of my knowledge from college courses on the subjects such as horticulture, botany, and beginner and advanced herpetology

But I'm not an expert I'm also not a half wit though.

 

[Elizadolots]

But I'm not an expert I'm also not a half wit though

That has the makings of a great shirt... some suggestions:

"Just because I'm not an expert doesn't mean I'm a half wit"

"I'm not an expert, but I'm also not a half wit"


Whaddaya say? You, me, Cafe Press...we could probably make like $5 each!

 

[Sterlingcham]

Bahahaha yes perfect t-shirt for people of higher education.

Hahah if u ever want to make it happen pm me I actually have screen printing station in my shop one of my many hobbys hahah I make t-shirts and things for the schools around my area which allows me to pay for the screen printing and all of my Cham addictions

 

[Elizadolots]

Hmm....it seems to me that you are a resource this board should mine. I'm going to direct the admin to your post. Maybe wonderful things will happen.

 

[Sterlingcham]

I am an abundant source of knowledge as I am a scholar and love learning my trades and perfecting them I am also dabbling in almost seriously about anything and everything that catches my curiosity and I quote " The brain is merely the seed in which we water with knowledge" -unknown

I was also thinking about going back to school to become a vet but I feel as if I don't know how much of a work load that is so maybe soon

 

[Elizadolots]

Yeah...I just thought we could design cool Chameleon Forum shirts, you could print them, we would buy them and happiness and profit would abound....silly me.

 

[Sterlingcham]

Lol well yes that as well hahah that is if the admins want to sell them on here I would be glad to be a part of that