Elizadolots
New Member
Good to know since I already sent Brad a message....
EMERGENCY - Kepler having inner ear problems?
- Thread starter mons00n
- Start date
Dr O
Veterinarian
Now that is a fine looking Chameleon! It's so sad when they're doing things that frighten us…
Just a couple of random thoughts that come to my head when I view the video and read all of this-
-your husbandry appears excellent. I would strongly doubt that it was any sort of seizure related to a nutritional imbalance. Of course calcium being the prime suspect in all cases.
-By far and away the most common cause of seizures in reptiles will be from exposure to a toxin. The old organophosphate insecticides being prime suspects such as when people are treating for mite infestations. The Sherlock Holmes in me wonders about the fish tank and if it is possible that any chemical that you used in that environment may have made its way over to his cage. A longshot, I know, but worth asking about.
-I absolutely agree that Chameleons in general seem to be exceedingly disoriented when woken from sleep. They never cease to amaze me how they often prefer to keep their eyes closed, hunch over, and just try to ignore whatever the offending situation might be. But I have had some of my calmest chameleons wake up in a frenzy, thrashing around and even biting me. However circling is a bit odd.
-And as has been said, as an isolated incident I would not even think twice about it; however I do thank you for the excellent video! It is unfortunate, but sometimes I have had to advise my clients when potential early signs of a mysterious disease arise that we have to wait and see if there're are any further episodes. If not, wonderful! If so, then whatever is going on tends to become more and more obvious.
I obviously wish him the best, he is really a stunner, and I personally think it's very unlikely that you will see this again (unless perhaps he is woken again from a deep sleep suddenly!). ;-)
Just a couple of random thoughts that come to my head when I view the video and read all of this-
-your husbandry appears excellent. I would strongly doubt that it was any sort of seizure related to a nutritional imbalance. Of course calcium being the prime suspect in all cases.
-By far and away the most common cause of seizures in reptiles will be from exposure to a toxin. The old organophosphate insecticides being prime suspects such as when people are treating for mite infestations. The Sherlock Holmes in me wonders about the fish tank and if it is possible that any chemical that you used in that environment may have made its way over to his cage. A longshot, I know, but worth asking about.
-I absolutely agree that Chameleons in general seem to be exceedingly disoriented when woken from sleep. They never cease to amaze me how they often prefer to keep their eyes closed, hunch over, and just try to ignore whatever the offending situation might be. But I have had some of my calmest chameleons wake up in a frenzy, thrashing around and even biting me. However circling is a bit odd.
-And as has been said, as an isolated incident I would not even think twice about it; however I do thank you for the excellent video! It is unfortunate, but sometimes I have had to advise my clients when potential early signs of a mysterious disease arise that we have to wait and see if there're are any further episodes. If not, wonderful! If so, then whatever is going on tends to become more and more obvious.
I obviously wish him the best, he is really a stunner, and I personally think it's very unlikely that you will see this again (unless perhaps he is woken again from a deep sleep suddenly!). ;-)
Dr O
Veterinarian
And, for the record, I have one of the rarest neurologic diseases known. There isn't squat in the literature although I have found one "expert "who has studied this. And as a doctor myself I would have thought that someone, somewhere would have been interested enough to take as much data as I would be willing to give, but there is no one. So there's definitely a lot of things out there that are completely unknown, or are known but are hardly written about, human and veterinary together.
I can't wait until we have Star Trek-kind of medicine and we have it all figured out!
I can't wait until we have Star Trek-kind of medicine and we have it all figured out!
Elizadolots
New Member
I think most of us wanting Star Trek to happen aren't as interested in transporter beams as we are in biobeds....
Dr. O, you say
Dr. O, you say
in regards to seizures. I know you are not suggesting there's an imbalance here, but I'm curious. Are you saying that over dosing of calcium can cause seizures? Or,that under dosing of calcium can cause seizures? Or that either over dosing or under dosing of calcium can cause seizures?
An underdose, or deficiency of calcium can cause muscle tremors and seizure activity in reptiles.
Dr O
Veterinarian
i meant underdosing. as calcium is used in every muscle cell in our body to work, a deficiency will cause irregular jerking, tetanic movements as the cells are not able to contract in the unison that the brain is demanding.
many lay people, when thinking of seizures tend to focus on the classic grand mal/tonic-clonic seizures where the individual is essentially unconscious with full-body movements. however, there are a great many different types of seizures, the other family typically a type of partial/focal seizure (petit mal, paroxysmal dyskinesia) where conciousnes is preserved but muscle control is not. they are more common in reptiles and mammals than most people realize. some examples of that could be as simple as a twitching finger (i had one that lasted for about 8 months once, drove me crazy!), uncontrolled head bobbing (such as a vestibular disease common in bulldogs), or maybe even "fly-biting" behavior, where a dog may look and snap at a non-existent fly. all of these families of seizures are grouped and identified by EEG responses and which muscle groups or individual musles are involved.
in this particular case, the cham appeared conscious but was uncontrolably circling. so if that were to be a seizure, it would not have been expected to be unconscious or "foaming at the mouth"; either part of the brain controlling one side of the body failed or overreacted, or the muscles on one side of the body began contracting on their own and essentially forced the turning behavior. and there's so many other types....anyone interested can easily just google something like "types of seizures".
but again, imo this was not a seizure in a true sense, but only time will truly tell. and as a general fyi, classic generalized seizures tend to be more amenable to medications for treatment than focal seizures.
Elizadolots
New Member
Thanks.
I thought it looked like post seizure disorientation and movement in the video. I assumed that the seizure caused the noise which woke the OP. But, as I said, that was just a first impression.
The night my dog had 9 seizures in 2 hours she did that between the seizures. My opinion is that the direction of the turn and head lean (which was consistent...the head turned sharply during the seizures) probably indicates which side of the brain is experiencing the event. Once we got her to our regular vet (she spent that night in the ER) he thought that seemed likely.
Seizures are not well understood, even in humans, but they are reasonably well documented. As you say, some are seemingly minor. San Diego used to have a news anchor who would have small seizures on the air. We never knew it until he mentioned it in an interview later. He would just glass over for a moment and seem not to know what was going on. He took a lot of teasing for that over the years, only later did we realize how courageous it was for him to go out there night after night.
Sorry to get all off topic. It's just such a fascinating thing.
I thought it looked like post seizure disorientation and movement in the video. I assumed that the seizure caused the noise which woke the OP. But, as I said, that was just a first impression.
The night my dog had 9 seizures in 2 hours she did that between the seizures. My opinion is that the direction of the turn and head lean (which was consistent...the head turned sharply during the seizures) probably indicates which side of the brain is experiencing the event. Once we got her to our regular vet (she spent that night in the ER) he thought that seemed likely.
Seizures are not well understood, even in humans, but they are reasonably well documented. As you say, some are seemingly minor. San Diego used to have a news anchor who would have small seizures on the air. We never knew it until he mentioned it in an interview later. He would just glass over for a moment and seem not to know what was going on. He took a lot of teasing for that over the years, only later did we realize how courageous it was for him to go out there night after night.
Sorry to get all off topic. It's just such a fascinating thing.
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mons00n
New Member
Hi guys,
At the advice of everyone here I didn't pay much attention hoping it was an isolated incident. Well tonight it happened once again. This time Kepler woke from a dead sleep and started walking forward and only being able to turn left with symptoms exactly like the ones posted originally. He was up for maybe 1.5 hours and finally went back to bed upside down hanging on with only his left front & back feet (upside down is completely uncharacteristic of him). I gently woke him so he could attach his other feet, and he fell back asleep upside down.
I feel completely helpless when these things happen; is a vet visit even going to help the situation? It's been roughly a month since this last happened, and two times doesn't necessarily constitute a pattern, but with the relatively short time between them I am starting to get concerned. He's been eating, drinking, and behaving normally the past month as well so....any ideas? What would you do in my position? Thanks for your help and the great discussions.
At the advice of everyone here I didn't pay much attention hoping it was an isolated incident. Well tonight it happened once again. This time Kepler woke from a dead sleep and started walking forward and only being able to turn left with symptoms exactly like the ones posted originally. He was up for maybe 1.5 hours and finally went back to bed upside down hanging on with only his left front & back feet (upside down is completely uncharacteristic of him). I gently woke him so he could attach his other feet, and he fell back asleep upside down.
I feel completely helpless when these things happen; is a vet visit even going to help the situation? It's been roughly a month since this last happened, and two times doesn't necessarily constitute a pattern, but with the relatively short time between them I am starting to get concerned. He's been eating, drinking, and behaving normally the past month as well so....any ideas? What would you do in my position? Thanks for your help and the great discussions.
Sterlingcham
New Member
My ambi panther did the same exact thing the other day I'm seeing the vet Monday about a sinus issue and inner ear inflammation that can be treated with antibiotics so that should help with the left turn thing because if u get rid of the inner ear inflammation or infection then that lefty head turning thing should stop if u friend me or pm me then me and u can keep in contact and we can keep eachother updated on the progress of this weird lefty turner thing.
Elizadolots
New Member
As Sterlingcham says, a vet can confirm whether or not there is an inner ear infection and if so, prescribe appropriate antibiotics. That makes a vet visit worthwhile. If it is not an infection, you might want to consult with Dr. O about possible chemical issues which might be triggering the problem.
mons00n
New Member
Would some sort of infection only manifest symptoms at night and 30 days apart? That's the only thing that would make me doubt an infection =(
Elizadolots
New Member
I agree with you, but biology is never linear so just because it doesn't make sense to us doesn't mean it can't be behind it.
Heck, maybe there's something that occasionally blooms at night in your area (like that damned night blooming Jasmine...hate that stuff) and it pushes his already stressed inner ear over the edge? I don't know how much, if at all, allergens affect reptiles, but then, this sort of uncharted territory, so it has to be considered possible. (for me and my husband, an allergic reaction to a night blooming plant can trigger severe balance issues, but we're big mammals...who knows about little reptiles?)
However, as noted, you might want to consider the idea that some sort of chemical in the room is triggering a seizure (a seizure still seems the most likely to me....but I'm not an expert).
Heck, maybe there's something that occasionally blooms at night in your area (like that damned night blooming Jasmine...hate that stuff) and it pushes his already stressed inner ear over the edge? I don't know how much, if at all, allergens affect reptiles, but then, this sort of uncharted territory, so it has to be considered possible. (for me and my husband, an allergic reaction to a night blooming plant can trigger severe balance issues, but we're big mammals...who knows about little reptiles?)
However, as noted, you might want to consider the idea that some sort of chemical in the room is triggering a seizure (a seizure still seems the most likely to me....but I'm not an expert).
