Enclosure size discrepancy.

[cyberlocc]

I am wondering if any old timers can clear this discrepancy for me.

So we have the cage recommendations. That are the same on CF Caresheets, and most Caresheets tbh. Are as follows.

Panther Chameleon
Juvi: 16x16x30
Female Minimum: 18x18x36
Male Minimum: 24x24x48


Veiled Chameleon
Juvi: 16x16x30
Female Minimum: 18x18x36
Male Minimum: 24x24x48


Now does anyone else spot the glaring issue with this? Lets look at these animals more in Depth. (SVL= Snout to Vent Length)

Female Panther Chameleon SVL = 6 inches
Male Panther CHameleon SVL = 8 Inches

Female Veiled Chameleon SVL = 8 inches
Male Veiled Chameleon SVL = 12 inches

Thats a huge discrepancy. You could say, well with tail length, the numbers are closer to the cage sizes change. Yet nowhere else in the Reptile world is tail a factor in cage size, and with chameleons spending a lot of time with it curled, or in use as a 5th arm it defiantly does not belong in this one.


So something is wrong here, either Female Panthers are okay in 18x18x36, and Male Panthers, and Female Veileds need 24x24x48, well then Male Veileds need 30x30x60 by my math. Or Male Panthers fall into 18x18x36, and Female Panthers fall into 16x16x30.

If we use the old logic, of 2.5x2.5x4, we end up with this.

Female Panther Chameleon = 15x15x24
Male Panther Chameleon = 20x20x32

Female Veiled Chameleon = 20x20x32
Male Veiled Chameleon = 30x30x48


@kinyonga @PetNcs

I am fairly sure, you both keep both species. Your thoughts? Others thoughts also welcome of course, but they have been around long enough to see these minimums become a thing .

Any keepers of Both, find that Panthers are MORE active? more inquisitive? Obviously, any animal is going to use every bit of space they are given. However we force upgrades on Panther keepers with 18x18x36 cages, while shoving Female Veileds (same sized Animals) into those same vivs, and suggest 24x24x48 for male panthers and veileds, while the latter is 50% bigger. There is not much sense in either of these scenarios, if you think about it, there is a MASSIVE discrepancy and oversight. Let me know what you think fun convo for the day .

 

[Goose502]

I was under the impression that females of both species are far less mobile. Maybe males are patrolling, or looking for females? My only experience with females was with veileds many years ago. I kept a pair together in a large 6 ft by 3 ft by 5 foot enclosure. Yes, I know this was terrible, but it was the early 90’s, didn’t know any better then.

 

[jamest0o0]

I honestly think male Panthers might benefit from the largest enclosures of any species we see kept. They move a ton and routinely seem to want new territory. Down the road I wouldn't be surprised if the minimal enclosure size is suggested to be double what it is now. Then again, maybe not... because it would be nearly impossible for breeders to supply that space, along with many others. It wouldn't be a realistic expectation for people even if it would be ideal.

 

[Beman]

I dunno my male Veiled is on the smaller end... about 8-9 inches body length. He has the DS medium tall atrium and uses every inch of it. It's dimensions are 30 inches wide, 24 deep, and 48 tall. I could not imagine him being in the standard 2x2x4. I prefer the wider format as well since my gradients in the cage are better then when I had a smaller enclosure.

I really think bigger is better for them. I think small cages are depressing and sad since in the wild they have all this room to move around in. When I give enclosure advice I always recommend the 2x2x4 minimum for males and females of both Panthers and Veileds. After all females you also have to incorporate a lay bin which would be awfully tight in the smaller cage.

 

[CasqueAbove]

I think we get caught up in the word "minimum", it is really referring to what is available. I think you are likely right in that too often it is just the size of the animal considered, not behavior. I think males have more tendency to wander.

 

[PetNcs]

I am wondering if any old timers can clear this discrepancy for me.

So we have the cage recommendations. That are the same on CF Caresheets, and most Caresheets tbh. Are as follows.

Panther Chameleon
Juvi: 16x16x30
Female Minimum: 18x18x36
Male Minimum: 24x24x48


Veiled Chameleon
Juvi: 16x16x30
Female Minimum: 18x18x36
Male Minimum: 24x24x48


Now does anyone else spot the glaring issue with this? Lets look at these animals more in Depth. (SVL= Snout to Vent Length)

Female Panther Chameleon SVL = 6 inches
Male Panther CHameleon SVL = 8 Inches

Female Veiled Chameleon SVL = 8 inches
Male Veiled Chameleon SVL = 12 inches

Thats a huge discrepancy. You could say, well with tail length, the numbers are closer to the cage sizes change. Yet nowhere else in the Reptile world is tail a factor in cage size, and with chameleons spending a lot of time with it curled, or in use as a 5th arm it defiantly does not belong in this one.


So something is wrong here, either Female Panthers are okay in 18x18x36, and Male Panthers, and Female Veileds need 24x24x48, well then Male Veileds need 30x30x60 by my math. Or Male Panthers fall into 18x18x36, and Female Panthers fall into 16x16x30.

If we use the old logic, of 2.5x2.5x4, we end up with this.

Female Panther Chameleon = 15x15x24
Male Panther Chameleon = 20x20x32

Female Veiled Chameleon = 20x20x32
Male Veiled Chameleon = 30x30x48


@kinyonga @PetNcs

I am fairly sure, you both keep both species. Your thoughts? Others thoughts also welcome of course, but they have been around long enough to see these minimums become a thing .

Any keepers of Both, find that Panthers are MORE active? more inquisitive? Obviously, any animal is going to use every bit of space they are given. However we force upgrades on Panther keepers with 18x18x36 cages, while shoving Female Veileds (same sized Animals) into those same vivs, and suggest 24x24x48 for male panthers and veileds, while the latter is 50% bigger. There is not much sense in either of these scenarios, if you think about it, there is a MASSIVE discrepancy and oversight. Let me know what you think fun convo for the day .

CAGE SIZE



Please do not have a simple question and then this one? There is no right answer on that and how many answers and we need to take a lot of things into consideration to find out the solution in my humble opinion.

All my answers are dealing with the two mentioned species only.



And the best answer is not “what size the cage must be” but what spade and environmental elements and features the cage must have to work properly?



It has to imitate the miniaturized space which is inhabited by these

Species! And, it is predominantly the inside of canopies of trees and bushes.



And, there is a immense need to adjust if it comes to the relation of the cage itself in relation to other space elements in the facilities we are having the cage.





There is only one ultimate answer to this question:

THE BIGGER THE BETTER.

Period.



All the rest is just a game about how to manage the tension between the needs and requirements if the animal at one side and availability, realistic offer and readiness to invest on the other side.



1.

For whom is the advice?



Experienced breeder or newbie?

The experienced breather needs to understand fully what are you talking about he needs to study the natural biotope and lifestyle of the comedians and not to rely on some blank statements and tell radical advice. The newbie on the contrary need a very clear guidance not to run wrong and even if the advice it’s maybe not 100% correct it must be safe for the animal and safe for him or her. And simple. And easily doable. Otherwise all collapses.



Buyer or do-it-yourself person?

Especially in the US but also in Asia the most frequent way how to get to things is “to buy them”. Not so much in Europe where people are much more ready to do it yourself. So if you’re flexible you can do whatever you want but if you are the buyer person you must stick with what is available because you have no other choice Regardless whether the size is correct or with little compromises or with big compromises. Also to make pressure on Manufacturers does not make too much sense because they have also technical and transport limitations on what they can realistically and for affordable money do. So, newbie recommendation must be something he/she can either get in the next petstore or order easily via internet.



Planned issue or time pressure?

It is a big difference whether I responsibly plan And prepare myself and prepare the cage and everything or I am an impulse buyer or even better I get a wonderful cheap present from my girlfriend or parents. If you have time namely, you can prepare lots of things and think everything through but if you are facing a situation that you have the animal at home in the shoebox, you need to act immediately and then there’s not so much choice: you need to go for an easy to buy quick solution.



2.

What do we consider by saying “size”?

Total cage with equipment or without?

Total cage with electric installation or without?

Space available or space needed for everything?

I have seen wonderfully huge cages that’s weird then totally blocked by 40 cm off non-sensual deep huge Lee bins from the bottom and through lights and all the equipment stealing again 30 to 40 cm from the top so that finally the animal is squeezed into a very tiny space and cannot use the space of the cage at all. So I suggest to speak about a cage with an equipment that does not block the usage of the space, it means all electrical devices outside of the cage and inside of the cage at the bottom only few plant pots.



3.

Do we consider just the space or also the sophistication of inner arrangement?

The cage can be so much overgrown that the animal is squeezed above plants or in some fissures between them or the space being great but no branches there to use it. Or, great space and then people put 20-30cm the back wall to imitate a rock for nothing and spend 20% of the volume of the cage with an unfunctional crap that makes it small, unnatural and dark...

So, I suggest to count

A properly vegetated and branched space imitating the canopy and nothing else



4.

Do we consider just the space or the space realistically to be used because it will be illuminated and providing useable UV?

Chameleons live in the trees and bushes. And they must see. So while the difference in the intensity of direct light on the top of the tree and 1 m above the ground is virtually same, in the cage, if illuminated by artifical sources of light, the intensity of the light decreases witb the sauare of the distance and it means that regardless how it aeem to us, the cages are in majorith of the cases very sark in the lower part, sk that it under normal circumstances doe not make any sense to make the cages higher than say 1m because we can NOT provide enough light for it (unless we use the light linear sources inside and vertically, which I cordially recommend but which has very heavy technical and safety constraints especially if using misters). And UV is a chapter for itself because there is virtually no source of UV than provides a useable UVI on a distance of more than 50cm, most of them less than 20. Even if they would exist, the proximity then would need to be limited, as otherwise they would cause burns and blindness and cancer and mutations etc. when too close.

So, too high cages, say above 120cm, are for nothing, as what is below 1m from light source, is unusable.
.

 

[PetNcs]

5.

Do we consider just the space or also its orientation and relation of the dimensions to each other?

A very tall but narrow cage is for nothing. Too low and too wide cage is also for nothing. In general cages with highest dimension vertically are recommended with not a big difference between the size of the width and the depth. i made best experience with cages as high as wide but the depths seems to be of less importance.



6.

Do we consider the cage only or also its relation to the space, it is in including other elements there?

It is of course a huge difference if you need to put just one beautiful cage in the middle of otherwise open space or you need to squeeze tens of cages next to each other in a breeding facility. Also, the presence of living plants, furniture, windows, interior lights, etc etc can make a huge difference.



7.

Do we speak about the requirement for a baby or an adult?

I would love to skip this question because for me this is something that is very often discussed with very low added value. The size o juvenile cages is relevant only for a breeder, who wants to breed a lot and needs to consider the space. For a regular keeper, this is not an issue at all because there’s no difference between the small and big cage from the perspective of raising the juveniles and the little concerns of concentrating the feeders or creating locally a slightly different environment then in adulthood can be very easily solved within the big cage and you do not need to invest the double money for fully equipping a small cage and then within only a few weeks you have the same headache of investing hundreds of dollars and equipping new big cage for a semi adult or adult. In my humble opinion a recommendation to have different cages for juveniles and adults given to a regular keeper is a nonsense and is irresponsible.



8.

Do we speak about the space theoretically or do need to take some technical limitations into account?

Light? Commented above

UV? Commented above

Manipulation?

Any cage which is deeper than 60 cm is for a regular human very hard to clean because you cannot reach that far with your hand and manipulating in such a cage might get even quite risky if it is made of glass and positioned high. So, deeper than 60 noes not make sense.

Weight?

Depending on the material from which the cage is built in on the equipment the cages can weigh a substantial weight that is very often underestimated. So it sometimes does not work to put them just on the furniture or on some light shelf and in bigger quantities even the technical parameters of the floor can be a challenge.

Drainage?

If using automatic misters, you inevitably need to consider drainage because you cannot risk usually the excess water to enter the space and not to be chanalized somewhere.



9.

Does the color make the space?

Yes it does
Cages equipped with walls made of dark color can resemble caves and give the impression that they are much smaller than what they in fact are. So if you need to use a color for your cage, choose always the lightest possible one (white) so that you can create the illusion of being in the middle of a bush or tree for the chameleon

 

[PetNcs]

My personal experience is:

1. My happiest chameleons were always put in the biggest cages (120cm wide 180cm high, 80cm deep) all were absolutely happy (but you need immense space and vertical lighting)
2. If going down to the smallest possible space to still feel the chameleons are OK, surprisingly, the decisive feature from my perspective is, to have a flattened cage rather than a compact one: 1m wide by 1m tall and 50cm deep is OK and seemingly same OK is just 30cm deep with the other two remaining same.
3. Worst are arrangements with the easy to understand metaphorical names: chimney, cave, impenetrable jungle, open space.

My practical recommendation is:

If Advice is given for a newbie, let us simplify it and advise the available sizes produced commercially.



For me, the relevant recommendation is:



If you want to get the best available and possible, go for DragonStrand.



If your budget is tight, go for



FLEXARIUM 100gallons

(30.16,5.48in) by EXOTERRA

Or

Screen Terrarium LARGE X-TALL

(90.45.90cm) by EXOTERRA

Or

XL Reptibreeze

(24.24.48in) by ZooMed



Make no difference Juvenile vs Adult (explained above)

Make no difference Male or Female (males will

Have it a bit squeezy anyway, why put female sin same squeezy smaller cages if we can recommend something that at least for them will be great.



The above is all written IMHO

All is much more from the perspective to be politically correct and strategically safe for a newbie rather than an comprehensive elaboration for experienced keeper. Bigger cage allows more mistakes not to be fatal.

 

[kinyonga]

Not much point in me commenting on this. pretty much anything I would have said has been said...and a few more things!

 

[cyberlocc]

Worst are arrangements with the easy to understand metaphorical names: chimney, cave, impenetrable jungle, open space.

I do not understand what you mean by these two? Is open space, as in a cage setup with Open Space? What is a Chimney? Are you referencing Chimney effect of a glass cage?

 

[PetNcs]

I do not understand what you mean by these two? Is open space, as in a cage setup with Open Space? What is a Chimney? Are you referencing Chimney effect of a glass cage?

no, i hoped that will be metaphorically clear but let me be explicite

CHIMNEY:
Very high but narrow and not deep cages such as tefurbished IKEA display shelfs (40.40.160cm), where the height exceeds the double of the width/depth substantially

CAVE
A space of cage fully surrounded from 3 sides by solid walls mostly of stone or bark or wood or cork imitation (or real) non-transparent, looking like a dark cave. Chameleons do not live in caves , neither in anything even far similar.

IMPENETRABLE JUNGLE
Plants are great but if they are too many creating a jungle, that the chameleon needs to crawl through, what they never do in the wild, as they tend not to touch anything with their bodies, it is unnatural and not good

OPEN SPACE
An empty soace where eg there are too big barks only or twigs just squeezed along a wall, exposing the poor
Chameleon to a big space wothout possibikity to hide, tk feel like on the Red Square in Moscow (I like it but I am human, chameleons hate open space, they tend to escape sich places and be always in a position, that in maximum few kittle steps, they arenin the bush on tree canopy if not there directly

 

[AmandaS]

Yeah, my female veiled has a 2.5x5x7 foot enclosure and she uses every square inch of it. The bigger, the better.

 

[CasqueAbove]

I think layout and perspective is very important, more than size. I have open enclosures, huge right ? well once I really get down to measuring actual usable space, between bottom of plants, and top light.
Both spaces have usable are of 29in deep, 33-40 wide, and about 36 inches of height. Because they have options, but choose to stay in their areas, except when seeking mates, or laying areas, I figure they are at least content with this space.

The differences with most cages IMHO is that the animal feels cornered. This is the cause of the extra aggression. With the open set up, they feel as though they can climb high it their tree for safety and watch the world below. I experience less aggression because they can simply get away.

I don't suggest people go with open enclosures always, there are many pitfalls. But the concept of feeling open with the ability to climb and hide adds to a more content animal. There is also the balance of enough plants, or too many plants.

I try to mimic tree tops.

 

[Klyde O'Scope]

Interesting discussion... I consider myself in the "as big as possible" camp, the operative word being possible. Does possible=practical?

When I researched bearded dragons before getting one, the minimum cage size specified by many sources & forums was a 40gal "breeder" tank. This translates to 36"W x 18"D x 16"H. with the recommended size being 48"W x 24"D x 24"H. Quite a difference. When one considers the guidelines from http://www.anapsid.org/enclsize.html things depend on the length of the lizard (moreso than its activity level) and how does one determine how long a particular specimen is going to be? My male BD that was supposed to grow to 22"-24" seems to have topped out around 18" (so far, but I doubt he'll surpass 20". Nevertheless, I wasn't content with minimum or even recommended, and while I would have liked to go 96"W x 24"D x 24"H, available space limited my final enclosure size to 60"W x 24"D x 36"H

When I google panther chameleon length, I likewise get a range (which varies between sources). If I take the average length of a male as 16" (from the 12"-20" at the top of the search page), and plug that into the guidelines above, the proper enclosure size should be something on the order of 32"W x 16"D x 24"H on the small size to 48"W x 24"D x 32"H.

I won't ask where the 24" x 24" x 48"H came from. I understand it too is considered a minimum(?)

My question is, will my proposed 30" x 30" x 48+" enclosure size (again, limited by available space) be sufficient for a male panther chameleon, or should I be rethinking something. While I'd love to go twice that size, it's not practical for me. Please note that part of the size limit is also due to my intention to bring the whole shebang in & outside during clement weather to give him some (more) fresh air & natural UVB when seasonally practical (in the Northeastern US).

 

[nightanole]

Interesting discussion... I consider myself in the "as big as possible" camp, the operative word being possible. Does possible=practical?

When I researched bearded dragons before getting one, the minimum cage size specified by many sources & forums was a 40gal "breeder" tank. This translates to 36"W x 18"D x 16"H. with the recommended size being 48"W x 24"D x 24"H. Quite a difference. When one considers the guidelines from http://www.anapsid.org/enclsize.html things depend on the length of the lizard (moreso than its activity level) and how does one determine how long a particular specimen is going to be? My male BD that was supposed to grow to 22"-24" seems to have topped out around 18" (so far, but I doubt he'll surpass 20". Nevertheless, I wasn't content with minimum or even recommended, and while I would have liked to go 96"W x 24"D x 24"H, available space limited my final enclosure size to 60"W x 24"D x 36"H

When I google panther chameleon length, I likewise get a range (which varies between sources). If I take the average length of a male as 16" (from the 12"-20" at the top of the search page), and plug that into the guidelines above, the proper enclosure size should be something on the order of 32"W x 16"D x 24"H on the small size to 48"W x 24"D x 32"H.

I won't ask where the 24" x 24" x 48"H came from. I understand it too is considered a minimum(?)

My question is, will my proposed 30" x 30" x 48+" enclosure size (again, limited by available space) be sufficient for a male panther chameleon, or should I be rethinking something. While I'd love to go twice that size, it's not practical for me. Please note that part of the size limit is also due to my intention to bring the whole shebang in & outside during clement weather to give him some (more) fresh air & natural UVB when seasonally practical (in the Northeastern US).

OLD SCHOOL:
dept of cage = animal length including tail
Length of cage = 2x animal length including tail
height of cage = 2x animal length including tail if tree, or 1x animal length include tail if land.


The above seems to work for "most" reptiles as min happy levels.


As for yhour 30x30x48 panther, its the 30x30 that will make it the happest. I think every panther/veiled would be happy with a 1 meter cube cage. You could have a floor to ceiling cage, but they will still hang out 90% of the time in a small 2ft up/down section, and the shorter the cage, the easier to light.

Also Dam them 32" interior doors

 

[cyberlocc]

OLD SCHOOL:
dept of cage = animal length including tail
Length of cage = 2x animal length including tail
height of cage = 2x animal length including tail if tree, or 1x animal length include tail if land.


The above seems to work for "most" reptiles as min happy levels.


As for yhour 30x30x48 panther, its the 30x30 that will make it the happest. I think every panther/veiled would be happy with a 1 meter cube cage. You could have a floor to ceiling cage, but they will still hang out 90% of the time in a small 2ft up/down section, and the shorter the cage, the easier to light.

Also Dam them 32" interior doors

Ya i have seen it as 2x snout + tail, and 2x SVL.

So for a Panther S+T would be 14-20 inches so 28-40 inches, which most don't do.

20-24 for veilieds. So your talking a 4x2x4, which is double the average size used.

The currently used caging, is a taller standard on a the 2x rule for SVL though, with 12in SVL for a Veilied, equaling a 24 inch cage.

Then if we follow that logic to panthers, 8inch SVL, means a 16x16x32 would be comparable to a Panther.


For the purpose of Chameleons specifically, that spend a great deal of thier time tail curled. What measurement is used then? SVL, STL or Curled STL? There is another brain teaser.



Bigger is always better to be clear. I keep my panther is a 4x2x4.

I'm just asking as I branch into Leaf tails. I am seeing Giant Leaf tails that dwarf panthers in 18x18x36s. Os also dwarf panthers are in 24x24x48. Panther breeders in the Facebook groups keeping Panthers in 18x18x36, and then others are bashed for panthers being in 24x18x36.

Like klyde said in another post. There seems to be no standard anymore. Everyone just all over the place lol for all diffrent things.

And really at the end of the day, as a glass endorser. For those that use Stock Glass (Exoterra) what size is the right size.

I have came to the personal one that 24x18x36 is fine for a panther.
I'm not alone in it, and its the middle ground. A 36x18x36 would be better, but thats not always feasible.

 

[nightanole]

Ya i have seen it as 2x snout + tail, and 2x SVL.

So for a Panther S+T would be 14-20 inches so 28-40 inches, which most don't do.

20-24 for veilieds. So your talking a 4x2x4, which is double the average size used.

The currently used caging, is a taller standard on a the 2x rule for SVL though, with 12in SVL for a Veilied, equaling a 24 inch cage.

Then if we follow that logic to panthers, 8inch SVL, means a 16x16x32 would be comparable to a Panther.


For the purpose of Chameleons specifically, that spend a great deal of thier time tail curled. What measurement is used then? SVL, STL or Curled STL? There is another brain teaser.



Bigger is always better to be clear. I keep my panther is a 4x2x4.

I'm just asking as I branch into Leaf tails. I am seeing Giant Leaf tails that dwarf panthers in 18x18x36s. Os also dwarf panthers are in 24x24x48. Panther breeders in the Facebook groups keeping Panthers in 18x18x36, and then others are bashed for panthers being in 24x18x36.

Like klyde said in another post. There seems to be no standard anymore. Everyone just all over the place lol for all diffrent things.

And really at the end of the day, as a glass endorser. For those that use Stock Glass (Exoterra) what size is the right size.

I have came to the personal one that 24x18x36 is fine for a panther.
I'm not alone in it, and its the middle ground. A 36x18x36 would be better, but thats not always feasible.

The only thing about using SVL for chams, to see if they are comfortable in a "small" cage, is how many times have you seen a cham walk with its tail curled? All of mine have walked with it unfurled like a balancing stick, and only curled it up when standing still.

I think a panther would be find in a 16" deep cage, but i dont think it would be happy in a 16x16, I know i wouldnt be happy if the only way my tail and nose didnt touch the sides, was if i sate catty corner.

 

[CasqueAbove]

I think 30 x 30 x 4 is a great size if set up right. As has been mentioned if you put in a foam background you lose some, but still good with that size.

I have never looked at the standard cage formula. There are too many variables.

my female has around 40 wide 3 feet high and 30 deep open enclosure and she can get down, but only does so when looking too lay eggs. I figure this means she is happy.

My male is the same. Roughly 3x3x3 useable space. Though he gets a periodic urge to explore 85% of the time he stays. Again I assume happy.

My Male Beardie about 19 inches, long tail. I converted the bottom of my sons closet. He actively uses 2/3 almost never goes in the unlighted 1/3. As a male, again I think he gets urges. About 3 times a month he climbs out and presumably explores. He is always found back at the glass to his enclosure. Again I guess he is happy. He is pretty active and changes basking position throughout the day.
Those are my observations

 

[Klyde O'Scope]

As for yhour 30x30x48 panther, its the 30x30 that will make it the happest. I think every panther/veiled would be happy with a 1 meter cube cage. You could have a floor to ceiling cage, but they will still hang out 90% of the time in a small 2ft up/down section, and the shorter the cage, the easier to light.

Also Dam them 32" interior doors

THX. The only door I have to worry about is 36", which is more like 34" once you subtract the stops.
My 30" limit is due to the 96" x 30" folding table (Missus' plant table) the enclosure will be sitting on.
I considered an extension platform, but we've tried that before for other applications. We're both clumsy klutzes, and want to avoid, "Down will come Panther, enclosure and all..." at all costs!

Were 30" square not large enough, I'd have to come up with a different supplemental table for it to sit on, at least the same dimensions as the enclosure, and still be limited by the 34" door opening.
I also have to be able to lift & move it by myself.

 

[Klyde O'Scope]

I know i wouldnt be happy if the only way my tail and nose didnt touch the sides, was if i sate catty corner.

OK, how do I scrub THAT image out of my brain?