End the Trade?

[Trace]

It's CITES. Convention on International Trade of Endangered Species. CITES.

Tell me how the 11500 Chamaeleo senegalensis or the 11120 Chamaeleo dilepis or the 10240 Chamaeleo gracilis that were exported in 2010 benefited from a few doses of Panacur. Of those astronomical numbers I'm willing to bet only a handful are still alive right now and off that tiny number only a few were bred successfully. This is only 3 kinds of chameleons. I do realize that some of those populations of animals are sustainable and that the number of exported specimens has dropped in the last few years (It used to be over 30000 senegalensis annually) but it just seems like an awful waste of life if they aren't being kept properly in captivity.

Sad thing is most of the prices of just those few species are often cheaper than the price of a proper UV bulb. Why bother keeping the dang animal properly when you can just get a new one for $20 at the next show.

A few other shocking statistics. 418500 Water Monitors (Varanus salvator) and 177200 Ball Pythons (Python regius) were exported last year! These numbers do not include the illegal trade.

I'd be quite happy if both legal and illegal trade of animals stopped.

 

[Ace]

"Somebody" will intervene? (I think thats everyones job, atleast everyone who cares!)

This is a little story about four people named Everybody, Somebody, Anybody, and Nobody.

There was an important job to be done and Everybody was sure that Somebody would do it.

Anybody could have done it, but Nobody did it.

Somebody got angry about that because it was Everybody's job.

Everybody thought that Anybody could do it, but Nobody realized that Everybody wouldn't do it.

It ended up that Everybody blamed Somebody when Nobody did what Anybody could have done!

im sorry...but this made me laugh, smile, and then sad.....great post

 

[Cainschams]

It's CITES. Convention on International Trade of Endangered Species. CITES.

Tell me how the 11500 Chamaeleo senegalensis or the 11120 Chamaeleo dilepis or the 10240 Chamaeleo gracilis that were exported in 2010 benefited

What sources are you getting the numbers from? I can only find 5000 senegals and it is from the CITIES quota for 2010. Just asking

I also cant believe that only 20 ellioti were exported last year which is also on the "CITIES" 2010 quota.

 

[Trace]

Run a species search through here. http://www.cites.org/common/quotas/2010/ExportQuotas2010.pdf

Here are my totals for the Senegals.
Benin: 5000
Ghana: 1500
Togo: 5000

I get a total of 2020 for Trioceros ellioti which makes more sense considering the numbers I saw for sale last year.

 

[Chase]

Run a species search through here. http://www.cites.org/common/quotas/2010/ExportQuotas2010.pdf

Here are my totals for the Senegals.
Benin: 5000
Ghana: 1500
Togo: 5000

I get a total of 2020 for Trioceros ellioti which makes more sense considering the numbers I saw for sale last year.

Every once and a while, I read through it to see what gets exported. I scanned through it quickly, and it said 200 of the legal Brookesia came in, and 38 Goetzei came in. What happened to all of those? I only saw a handful of Brookesia superciliaris, but not the other ones. Do they not bring them everything on the list in every year?

 

[JackP308]

Wow those numbers on the quota documents are pretty stunning for all species and that is just whats documented.hard to believe Indonesia and others still even have animals or healthy reefs at all. Makes you think. I didn't even know that many animals in numbers existed and shocked by the export reports.

 

[Cainschams]

Run a species search through here. http://www.cites.org/common/quotas/2010/ExportQuotas2010.pdf

Here are my totals for the Senegals.
Benin: 5000
Ghana: 1500
Togo: 5000

I get a total of 2020 for Trioceros ellioti which makes more sense considering the numbers I saw for sale last year.

I figured there had to be more than I saw while scanning. Late night brain malfunction I must have scanned that thing 4 times. The numbers are rather staggering for for those species. Of course those numbers anyone would like to see come down but I cant sit here and say I want to focus my attention on stopping legal trade while I keep animals in my room as the OP did though.

Linkin, they are just quotas set for the number allowed exported its not stating the exact numbers that were exported.

 

[fluxlizard]

You guys are focusing on total numbers collected and not considering the other factors. You have to consider total population sizes and population rate vs exports to see if it is sustainable.

For example- in Ohio alone in a single year - that's one state- 97,371 white tailed deer were harvested by hunters in 2009 alone. In one state. Total population is only several hundred thousand, yet this is a sustainable level harvest.

If you consider senegals or ball pythons or water monitors- the range is far larger than the state of ohio, population density is very high (these are very common species and none are in danger of being wiped out and have a range spreading across multiple countries).

On a radical animal rights site I saw a figure of 6 million deer hunted annually for the US, 20 million pheasants, 30 million squirrels, 25 million rabbits, 14 million ducks, etc in the USA.

None of these species are going extinct. In spite of these harvest numbers in some states in some years they have too many deer and if enough aren't harvested disease to the populations and damage to automobiles (walking into the road) and property damage (invading surburban landscapes and causing damage) can become a problem. Even with these harvest numbers most years populations can boom some years. With animals that produce 1 or 2 young annually per female.

The numbers of some species in that report are misleading- for example the number of water monitors claimed here in this thread was 418,000- presumably a larger number chosen for effect. Yet of that number only 5400 were exported alive - presumably for the pet trade. The other 413,100 were exported as skins and skin products. Huh. Cutting off the pet trade would be a drop in that bucket and not effect the leather industry at all. And water monitors are extremely common over much of their range in spite of decades of collection numbers like this for the skin trade. Go to youtube and you can see videos of tourists filming them in city parks next to picnickers and joggers!

I once heard a crocodilian expert give a slide presentation and speach about sustainable harvest levels they had studied. In most reptiles, natural mortality is very high (as in 95 + %) until the animals reach a certain size. They found that an incredibly high percentage of those animals could be removed and not effect total population of adult breeders at all- it remained stable because the ones left had less competition and a higher survivor rate which ended up keeping the breeder population stable over time. This was said to be applicable to most reptile species.

The problem today as I see it is the number and size of the animals collected should be better managed. Most animals collected when it comes to chameleons are adults- the breeder population. Probably not the best things, although probably not as damaging to remove as it would be in crocodilians because most chameleons have a breeding life of less than a couple years, so are constantly being replaced anyway. But younger animals would still be better for adapting to captivity and "safer" to remove from wild breeding populations. Fewer numbers means a higher price tag at least in theory for collectors, exporters, importers and breeders, and presumably better treatment by the collectors, exporters and importers- everybody wins. A collecting license could be issued to provide funds for wild population management, as it does in the USA from hunting licenses.

Are some of these numbers too high for current wild breeding populations? I don't know (I don't think anyone knows in may cases)- probably in some cases. But not in all (senegals and water monitors for example remain very common throughout their range in spite of having very dramatic looking harvest totals).

Better management at all levels is the answer, not a total ban. Nobody is worried about deer, rabbits, squirrels, and other game animals going extinct in the USA. Why? Adequate management. The result of the demand for the harvest of those species.

But to draw intelligent conclusions about cites quotas- you have to know more than just the total numbers collected. You have to understand population densities and percentages of sustainable harvest. And if you are amazed that 100,000 of a lizard is collected that lives a couple of years on average in the wild and produces multiple clutches of 20 or 30 eggs in that time and that ranges across central africa through multiple countries then you need to compare that with one state alone's harvest of deer which live several years and produce 1 or 2 babies annually, and consider what sustainable rates of harvest might be...

Would I like to see that number reduced? Yes- as I said, it is better for everyone involved including the lizard. But at the same time it doesn't necessarily follow that senegals total population levels are declining at current collection levels...

 

[Chase]

That makes sense. I just thought it was interesting that some species have low amounts and you don't even see them for a while. Would that be because they don't get as much money for them when they export them?

 

[fluxlizard]

By the way, my apologies to the OP for my first post in this thread.

Lately (well, maybe not lately - more like increasingly for the past decade) I feel like I don't have a lot of representation for my taxation, and I feel like the country I grew up in is disappearing fast and the freedoms I was told made my country unique and special seem to be disappearing thanks to both sides of the political spectrum. My frustrations came out when I see someone announcing they intend to remove yet more of that from me as their future career.

I should have been more thoughtful and diplomatic in my reply and far less insulting. My apologies.