Erroneous Conclusions Hurt Husbandry

[nick barta]

I have contemplated this post for a long time, and hope I communicate clearly.

The following are some statements that can result in erroneous conclusions:

"I only use distilled water for my chameleons."
Conclusion: You need to use distilled water to raise healthy chameleons.

"Bake branches before you put them in the enclosure."
Conclusion: If you don't don't bake branches, they will harm your chameleon.

"My chameleon has one eye closed and I saw him rubbing it on a branch."
Conclusion: He got bark in his eye, so I am putting in wood dowels and pulling out the branches.

"Store bought crickets cost too much, I am going to buy bulk."
Conclusion: My one chameleon will eat 1,000 crickets at 10 a day-variety isn't that important, I gotta get rid of these crickets.

I am sure there are dozens more we could all post, but let me share a couple of thoughts.

When looking at husbandry, we need to keep a big-picture, global perspective. One of the best examples of this on the Chameleon Forum is Chris Anderson's post on keeping chameleons in glass enclosures. How many posts have we seen on chameleons ONLY in screen cages? My guess is that if someone of less stature had posted that post, we Americans would have labeled that person as crazy, while UK and European keepers were applauding.

Some key phrases erroneous conclusions often contain are:

"My chameleon seems to like it." Really?? How do you quantify that?

"My chameleon loves heated water mistings, he hates cold water." Chameleons with room temperature water in most chameleon rooms is 72 degrees or so, you really think he cares?

"My chameleon likes to be handled, he comes to the door and walks right onto my hand." Chameleons don't like, love, or need us. They would climb up Godzilla as long as Godzilla was calm and taller than the chameleons present height.

As newer chameleon owners read and join the forum, let's all try to not lead them down paths that result in husbandry that harms rather than help.

CHEERS!

Nick Barta

 

[Ninkylou]

Well said.

 

[Chuck G]

Good stuff.

 

[Psychedelic Chams]

Only thing i can say is wrong is chameleons once in captivity can and will grow fond or.completely hate their owner and yes your chameleons run to the cage just so they can explore in the wild the have a forest to navigate and find their tree lol

 

[jannb]

I have to disagree with you on a few of these. Of course Chris Anderson is successful with using glass and many other experienced keepers but IMO is it so much easier for a new keeper to keep the temps and ventilation correct in a screen enclosure and I doubt even Chris would keep a veiled or panther in glass and that's the species that most of our new member here keep.

Also, I interact with my chameleons on a daily basic and see more and learn more about them and their personalities that the normal keeper. I have/had chameleons that want to do all my daily chores with me. Just because you haven't had one that likes people, attention and interaction doesn't mean they are not out there. The more time you spend with any animal the smarter it becomes and this is also true of chameleons.

 

[fluxlizard]

Well said Nick.

completely hate their owner and yes your chameleons run to the cage just so they can explore in the wild the have a forest to navigate and find their tree

Thanks for being brave enough to disagree.

Here is what is wrong with your thinking

Chameleons don't love or hate. They just are. What you are seeing as hate, if you take a step back, is normal aggressive response from fear (fight of flight reflex- do they still teach that in basic biology?) It is not hatred which is a far more complex emotion.

As far as wanting to "explore"- The danger is what you and others interpret as a desire to be sociable with the owner and climb out of the cage and "explore" can also be interpreted as the enclosure not providing optimal conditions and your hand is the only way out. Or a simple desire to escape and your hand is the only way out. etc.

 

[symphonica]

Word choice is soooo important. Because people can't pick up on your voice tones or facial expressions through writing, and because not everybody is of the same level when it comes to making inferential connections, if you don't clearly state it in black and white, you can't assume that people will pick up on it.

For example, there is a significant difference between,
"mom yelled at me,"
And, "mom gave me a talking to," or "mom scolded me."

 

[Psychedelic Chams]

Only wrong is your putting way to much thought into it to be honest. Like jann perfectly stated each chameleon is like its own person some people hate everyone and never want bothered. Well some chameleons want to hang around with you in the house they are very curious animals always wondering what things are like a cat for instance. But to say that a chameleon crawling onto your hand is that it is lacking things in its enviroment is absurd. Maybe if you just started with chameleon then this statement may be valid but your telling me that someone who never handles or touches their cham that it is going to run out onto your hand good luck its not going to happen believe it or not people their not stupid lizards their actually are quite brilliant

Well said Nick.



Thanks for being brave enough to disagree.

Here is what is wrong with your thinking

Chameleons don't love or hate. They just are. What you are seeing as hate, if you take a step back, is normal aggressive response from fear (fight of flight reflex- do they still teach that in basic biology?) It is not hatred which is a far more complex emotion.

As far as wanting to "explore"- The danger is what you and others interpret as a desire to be sociable with the owner and climb out of the cage and "explore" can also be interpreted as the enclosure not providing optimal conditions and your hand is the only way out. Or a simple desire to escape and your hand is the only way out. etc.

 

[broderp]

Although I agree with you in general, and a lot of fact seems to be coming from personal opinion or misguided or incorrect interpretation.

You can not however remove the HUMAN factor in many things. By that I mean how WE process and interpret globally as a species (human) and relate it to our own sensibilites.

"My chameleon seems to like it." Really?? How do you quantify that?

We say "he likes it" because we see that our chams not run away from or they welcome the siduation. (goes to it) Logic tells me that if something is desireable or pleaseant, you don't run away form it. If it's scarey or bad, you don't tolorate it or run from it.

"My chameleon likes to be handled, he comes to the door and walks right onto my hand." Chameleons don't like, love, or need us. They would climb up Godzilla as long as Godzilla was calm and taller than the chameleons present height.

Again, human perception. Would any animal go towards danger? Instinctivly they shy from it. And YES, I have sat in a chair that is LOWER than my cham, and he goes to the door and 'wipes' the window until I let him out. He then crawls DOWN towards my and into my lap or arm, which is very much lower than his basking spot high up in his terrarium. Call it instict or recalled actions, but we percieve it as them liking or wanting something. To me this says we are not dagerous to them and they are secure enough to allow us to handle. It is really "liking to be held?" debateable, but WE see it that way, and there is nothing wrong with it in my book.

Your post is very valid, but I believe you are discussing two different topics that probably deserve thier own threads.

The humanization of cham responses and fact vs myth of husbandry.

Nice topic though.

 

[FlChamMom]

As far as wanting to "explore"- The danger is what you and others interpret as a desire to be sociable with the owner and climb out of the cage and "explore" can also be interpreted as the enclosure not providing optimal conditions and your hand is the only way out. Or a simple desire to escape and your hand is the only way out. etc.

I get what everyone is saying and understand the limitations of chameleon "emotions", however I question the statement I hear a lot from some members that if your chameleon wants to come out of the cage you are doing something wrong with your husbandry. I have a veiled and a panther (both very healthy) and closely monitor temps and humidity. My cages have more than enough places to hide and bask- according to all of the prevalent chameleon husbandry standards I am doing everything "right". However let me leave the cage open to clean or whatever and I will soon have a curious cham climb on whatever body part is closest. Not trying to say he is greeting me like a dog but would it not be also possible that it is also natural for a caged animal to want to see what is beyond the confines of his enclosure? I have just always had a hard time when I see posts that act like as long as you have your setup correct you should have chameleons who sit in the cage like fish in an aquarium...

 

[pigglett79]

I agree that most replies to posts are short and just tend to be someone spouting off their methods or opinions without any details or background information. For the most part members don’t take the time to respond with a detailed, well researched or well thought out response. And of course there are various reason for that: laziness, inability to formulate the detailed response needed, lack of interest in researching or looking deeper in to the issue, lack of time to answer as fully as you would like, or in some cases members are just responding to as many threads as they can to get their post count up either for “status”, to get member status to be able to post in the classifies etc, or in order to feel better about themselves.

I also believe responses tend to become shorter as we respond to the same questions or issues over and over. To alleviate this we could save the long detailed response and paste it each time the same issue comes up.
From my experience I can say that yes, some of my chameleons prefer heated water. I have tested this multiple times with using non-heated water and heated water and I have each time observed the ones that prefer heated water to drink more and stay in the water more often when it is heated. I don’t feel the need to prove this to anyone else, as I know what I observe and I will respond accordingly for my boys.

Of course the debate on whether chameleons can be social will never be resolved. There will always be the camp that believes they are purely instinctual and cannot be social or like certain things, and the other camp that thinks they can.

I work from home and have the opportunity to spend extended amounts of time observing the behavior of my chameleons, there are those that definitely prefer to be on their own and left alone. And when they want to come out they prefer to walk out on a vine to their free range and don’t really want anything to do with my hand. While I have one who most definitely looks right at me and would much rather walk on me than a branch or vine. He may even climb down from his free range trees to walk on my desk or up my arm as I am sitting. He would also reach out to me as I walk by while the others would never do that. They have large, well planted much more than adequate caging and large free ranges for stimulation a few times a week. But again, I don’t feel the need to prove anything to anyone else. I treat my boys as they prefer and I believe I am pretty good at reading their very different personalities.

Edit: I also wanted to add, that there is not one correct answer for every chameleon. It is about trial and error until you find what works best. Take drinking for instance, some chameleons prefer to only drink from a dripper, while others prefer misting and drinking of leaves etc. There are a wide variety of variances that can be taken in to account in husbandry of exotic pets. I believe it is more important to find what works for your individual chameleon than taking one method as the only right answer. So yes it is very important to give a more detailed answer than to spout off that one way is the only way.

 

[fluxlizard]

Of course Chris Anderson is successful with using glass and many other experienced keepers but IMO is it so much easier for a new keeper to keep the temps and ventilation correct in a screen enclosure and I doubt even Chris would keep a veiled or panther in glass and that's the species that most of our new member here keep.

As someone who used glass fish tanks exclusively for a few years as a chameleon beginner years ago, and then continued to use them part time for several more, I'm going to disagree. I bred successfully more than one generation of panthers and veileds in those tanks, and some of those animals were among the longest lived and beautiful, healthiest chameleons I've seen. I also bred other species in those tanks- carpets, quads, montiums, dilepis, campani. I also had friends who bred other species in tanks- one bred jacksons over a few generations in fish tanks. Why? Because the CIN hadn't pounded screen cages into everyone's head quite yet when we all started.

As far as my experience goes- it was far easier to control temperature and humidity in those tanks and get things right. You don't constantly loose huge volumes of air which take heat and moisture with them. But believe it or not, you do get a steady exchange of air from a chimney effect- cool air being pulled in from the top, across the floor of the tank, and up as it warms under the heat light and exists the top and goes on up and away from the tank. In those tanks a light misting morning and evening (enough to cover everything lightly in droplets without making puddles on the floor) and a live potted pothos vine respirating and a 20-30 minute daily drip from a drip cup into a catch bowl was plenty to keep the humidity up, yet everything dried out completely and although I live in a fairly humid environment, there was never any mold or fungus, etc.

And if you think about it- many breeders use tanks or plastic tubs to raise babies. There is no difference between those tubs and an aquarium as far as airflow conditions. My question once the screaming screen crowd formed was always "at what age did your chameleon suddenly require more airflow?"

I switched for to screen for 3 reasons-
1) I wanted to move the lizards outdoors in the summer. Can't do that with glass.

2) quality of life reasons- I'm a little ashamed to admit it now, but I was breeding everything mostly in 29 gallon tanks. There are others who have used smaller- the breeder I bought my veileds from at the time was using 20 gallon high tanks for males and 10 to 15 gallon tanks for females. He was my main influence- there simply weren't lots of people breeding chameleons at all yet, let alone any giving out step by step advice that led easily to success and he was willing to give it out so it was no more difficult for me to start than following a recipe.

This sounds tiny today, and I agree that it is, BUT- mindset was a little different in those days (22 years ago) when it came to tank size. Gary Ferguson, whose work I'm sure you are familiar with (did multiple nutritional studies with panthers, as well as field work, kept and bred panthers over generations in his lab, co-authored The Panther Chameleon: Color Variation, Natural History, Conservation, and Captive Management and Chameleons: Care and Breeding of Jackson's, Panther, Veiled, and Parson's mentioned keeping his breeders in large opaque storage tubs in his lab (probably 20 gallon size) and mentions in both books enclosures with minimal dimensions for adult panthers that are exactly 10 gallon aquarium tank size. But also mentions the sides and rear of enclosores that small should be covered to discourage pawing to get out. (Which I found to be true as well- I used to use green paper to cover the rear and sides and leave the front open, the chams were content with that).

And in my defense, I felt at the time that I was taking the care guidelines I was given a step up by going with 29 gallon size rather than smaller 20 gallon tanks.

So, I began using screen enclosures when I started thinking about quality of life issues- I wanted to take them outdoors during the summers and I wanted to see my lizards stretch out and go for a stroll that could last more than a few steps. That is why even today I'm not a fan of the little 18"x18" floorspace cages for female veileds and panthers.

But I know for a fact from years of experience actually doing it, that not only are glass tanks fine, but chameleons can be healthy and content in much smaller than the often parroted 2x2x4' enclosures. (I'm not the only one either- if you are using husbandry that encourages low basking temps for veileds and greatly reduced vit a - you are going off the work one of the forum members here pioneered. She has the longest lived female veileds I've ever heard of- several years and supposedly holds the record for longevity, but guess what she uses for enclosures? Glass fish tanks.) I measure contentment by overall appearance, vigour, coloration, appetite and behavior. I also know from this same experience that the need for huge volumes of airflow is just a myth, plain and simple.

3) Budget reasons. I wanted much larger enclosures, and glass is far more expensive than screen at those sizes. And glass would require a set of second cages if I wanted to move animals outdoors for real sunlight and weather variation in the summer, which further increases expense.

In my opinion these are all valid reasons for choosing screen enclosures, and don't require making stuff up.

When I get involved in these discussions in the past, I do say I used aquaria, but I don't think I've ever said anything about what size other than "large". The reason is I bite my tongue for quality of life reasons for the animals. But I do sometimes hold back and bite my tongue when I see people fly off about how a cage *needs* to be 2x2x4 or it just doesn't work, and I know that just isn't true.

It is no more difficult to control temperature in glass for a chameleon than it is for a giant day gecko or bearded dragon or baby iguana, etc.

 

[fluxlizard]

I get what everyone is saying and understand the limitations of chameleon "emotions", however I question the statement I hear a lot from some members that if your chameleon wants to come out of the cage you are doing something wrong with your husbandry.

I agree with that statement and that is not what I meant to say. I apologize for not being more clear and implying that kind of thinking.

I tried to say that kind of interpretation is dangerous for that reason- that you can misinterpret the behavior of the lizard when it could be trying to escape bad conditions.

In a way this is related to the "my cham hates me" idea. This is based in fear, but once that fear is overcome by the lizard, he is not going to see you as a threat any more and will be totally comfortable walking out onto you.

And of course, once you have reached this point, his desire to leave his cage has nothing to do with husbandry. Heck- you could take the cage outside and open the door and he would be gone after a while probably- doesn't mean anything was wrong in the cage.

 

[Mike Fisher]

Good post. I still get a bunch of flack over my fully planted enclosures with peat substrates for montanes...whatevs....haters gonna hate.

 

[werecat]

For the most part, I agree with Nick. We must be cautious about what can be inferred from the experiences we post. I have seen some people come to dangerous conclusions because they inferred that their chameleon was "happier" or "healthier" from a certain aspect of their husbandry and they passed that information on to the forums. Those with less experience or those who just don't feel like doing tons of research might stumble upon such posts and take them as fact. Unfortunately, from what I've learned, there is no fact when it comes to chameleon care, but a summation of experiences with some things working better than other things. I understand that due to the delicate nature of the animals, chameleon husbandry has evolved and continues to evolve from trial and error. Those who have experienced the error (and the pain of that loss) are naturally going to cling to the things that have been successful and reject the things that were unsuccessful. Still, there are variations on husbandry and what has been unsuccessful for some has actually worked out quite well for others.

I do understand why some members preach some things as gospel. The truth is, many inexperienced keepers come to this forum for answers, and some of the best answers are the safe answers. The experienced members have tried to create some "best practices" for newbies that will provide them with the greatest success and least amount of risk. This is enough for some. Some people just want to keep one chameleon (I know, shocking, but true!) and it is not a hobby that they want to delve any deeper into. For those, like me who are fascinated by these animals and want to keep learning more, they will begin to see through research, that some of these "tried and true" statements are not the only way of doing things.

I hope I'm coming off clearly. I guess I'm trying to say, that we must be careful what ourselves and others infer from the experiences we have and post about as they may indeed be erroneous, but I understand that it's easy to do.

 

[Balizar]

I have contemplated this post for a long time, and hope I communicate clearly.

The following are some statements that can result in erroneous conclusions:

"I only use distilled water for my chameleons."
Conclusion: You need to use distilled water to raise healthy chameleons.

"Bake branches before you put them in the enclosure."
Conclusion: If you don't don't bake branches, they will harm your chameleon.

"My chameleon has one eye closed and I saw him rubbing it on a branch."
Conclusion: He got bark in his eye, so I am putting in wood dowels and pulling out the branches.

"Store bought crickets cost too much, I am going to buy bulk."
Conclusion: My one chameleon will eat 1,000 crickets at 10 a day-variety isn't that important, I gotta get rid of these crickets.

I am sure there are dozens more we could all post, but let me share a couple of thoughts.

When looking at husbandry, we need to keep a big-picture, global perspective. One of the best examples of this on the Chameleon Forum is Chris Anderson's post on keeping chameleons in glass enclosures. How many posts have we seen on chameleons ONLY in screen cages? My guess is that if someone of less stature had posted that post, we Americans would have labeled that person as crazy, while UK and European keepers were applauding.

Some key phrases erroneous conclusions often contain are:

"My chameleon seems to like it." Really?? How do you quantify that?

"My chameleon loves heated water mistings, he hates cold water." Chameleons with room temperature water in most chameleon rooms is 72 degrees or so, you really think he cares?

"My chameleon likes to be handled, he comes to the door and walks right onto my hand." Chameleons don't like, love, or need us. They would climb up Godzilla as long as Godzilla was calm and taller than the chameleons present height.

As newer chameleon owners read and join the forum, let's all try to not lead them down paths that result in husbandry that harms rather than help.

CHEERS!

Nick Barta

Riddled with assumptions and opinions!

 

[nick barta]

Riddled with assumptions and opinions!

Ah, grasshopper, you have discovered the hidden plan!!! I sought to encourage discussion, and chose topics of husbandry that had great potential to develop conversation, questions, and debate.

We all have opinions and mind sets that control our beliefs in any area of thought processes. The purpose of this thread is not to express my opinions, but rather to get all of us to discuss husbandry methods, and think about what we post. Forums are a good method to get information on many subjects, but misinformation can be harmful.

Aren't you glad I didn't list more difficult subjects?

I do comprehend that I am challenging all of us, and I have found myself to be opinionated, stubborn, and sometimes just SURE I am right... the key for me is to not give up the quest for learning and hearing others point of view.

This post should respond to all previous posts that addressed one of my contested conclusions.

CHEERS!

Nick

 

[Olimpia]

I always try to remind people that a single instance does not make a law.

Take for example something someone posted a few years ago to a superworm thread - they said that they had fed superworms to their Jackson's chameleon, who had what they described as a seizure, and died. Ergo, superworms directly cause seizures in chameleons. This created panic in the thread, and probably sent more than one person to their superworm bins to throw them out. But one instance does not make a law, especially when most people don't know what they're seeing when something goes wrong (perhaps he merely choked on a particularly large worm?)

So I try to remind people not to make anecdotes sound like statements or laws, especially if it was a one-time thing. You can mention it, share an experience, but word it as such. I see it in people that use a product or something for the first time and something else happens, and the assumption is that the product is responsible, when it really may not. But others see that and think "oh, I can't buy X ever, because it causes..."

 

[zsazsa85]

We'll this a very interesting thread again. I'd like to say some protective word in the name of the"one chameleon owners": I for example have one, because he is my first one I'd like to do it right with one at the beginning. And as we all know they are very expensive to keep... And I research every day, several times. So I don't have one Cham just because I'm not that interested. It can be a hobby even if you have one. No disrespect. The other thing, I can say as an amateur, that there are many theories. I know some about the European husbandry but I read this forum every time and there are many-many different thoughts. I try to follow the one which makes more sence. But I'm pretty sure chams are all individuall.

 

[carol5208]

Flux, I gotta give you some rep points(although I a am sure you could care less) for what might be the longest post in forum history!!!! Lots of good stuff!