Erroneous Conclusions Hurt Husbandry

[werecat]

We'll this a very interesting thread again. I'd like to say some protective word in the name of the"one chameleon owners": I for example have one, because he is my first one I'd like to do it right with one at the beginning. And as we all know they are very expensive to keep... And I research every day, several times. So I don't have one Cham just because I'm not that interested. It can be a hobby even if you have one. No disrespect. The other thing, I can say as an amateur, that there are many theories. I know some about the European husbandry but I read this forum every time and there are many-many different thoughts. I try to follow the one which makes more sence. But I'm pretty sure chams are all individuall.

I did not mean to imply that all "one chameleon owners" are not interested in learning more. I myself am a one chameleon person (for some of the same reasons as you). I was merely trying to point out that there are some people who get a chameleon as a pet and want to know the simplest and most straightforward way to care for it and no more. It is for these people that the "tried and true" husbandry techniques suffice, but it is also these people who may not search further than a couple of threads and may take erroneous information as true information.

 

[nick barta]

I did not mean to imply that all "one chameleon owners" are not interested in learning more. I myself am a one chameleon person (for some of the same reasons as you). I was merely trying to point out that there are some people who get a chameleon as a pet and want to know the simplest and most straightforward way to care for it and no more. It is for these people that the "tried and true" husbandry techniques suffice, but it is also these people who may not search further than a couple of threads and may take erroneous information as true information.

Well clarified!

 

[zsazsa85]

Thank you for clarifying! I misunderstood you then!

 

[Balizar]

Ah, grasshopper, you have discovered the hidden plan!!! I sought to encourage discussion, and chose topics of husbandry that had great potential to develop conversation, questions, and debate.

Nick

Sigghhhh Well (long pause w/sigh) _Nick_, since you have changed what you were trying to achieve in 2 separate posts to 2 separate people, maybe you ought to re-think what you are trying to say!

I encourage you to keep trying. I just dont feel everyone should buy in to this!!! Especially since this is coming from a "senior member". But I can see other people have spoken for themselves. So I will exit stage right...

 

[ataraxia]

Threads like this crack me up. We all have ran across replies that arent what we think is right. We have all posted something someone else doesnt agree with. But it is exactly that, it is an opinion on how you perceive the message and its based on your own limited personal experiences. We are on a open forum with a wide variety of age, maturity, intelligence, etc...If you want precise reading information that is to your liking. Write book.

 

[RPCV]

Interesting topic. This comes down to understanding the limitations associated with using a message board/forum as a source of information.
Most of the information posted is based on observations of individuals (or some parroting observations made by others).

Very few statements or “conclusions” are supported by well designed, reproducible scientific studies. That’s OK. Reality is; there is probably not much funding out there for someone to take the time and resources to study chameleons. The few people that do would not be able to keep up with all the variables associated with husbandry that are discussed on this board. Boards like this are for individuals to share their observations on what has or have not worked for them and that is useful.

The glass enclosure article is a great example. There are experienced & knowledgeable keepers that indicate it has worked for them. While this increases the likelihood that it will work for others it should not be implied that there is “no risk”. A successful keeper using glass may have other variables that contribute to the success. These variables may be different for someone else. A well designed study would be able to quantitatively test a hypothesis; which could be “use of glass aquariums is not associated with increased prevalence of upper respiratory infections”. Other variables that could be associated with the glass enclosure or risk of URI would be controlled or accounted for.

When a group of people report the same observations on this site this would be “hypothesis generating” not “hypothesis testing”. As more report the same observation (especially if those that report it have experience with many chameleons) the likelihood of the statement being true will increase. Still, it should not be relied upon as a definitive conclusion. In this sense this site is very useful; however “erroneous conclusions” are inevitable, as is the ability to determine what is or is not “erroneous”.

 

[broderp]

. And as we all know they are very expensive to keep....

Sounds like another perpetuated myth to me... what do you base this 'fact' on? I find mine relatively inexpensive to keep.....

 

[ir0k]

I agree that most replies to posts are short and just tend to be someone spouting off their methods or opinions without any details or background information. For the most part members don’t take the time to respond with a detailed, well researched or well thought out response. And of course there are various reason for that: laziness, inability to formulate the detailed response needed, lack of interest in researching or looking deeper in to the issue, lack of time to answer as fully as you would like, or in some cases members are just responding to as many threads as they can to get their post count up either for “status”, to get member status to be able to post in the classifies etc, or in order to feel better about themselves.

+1 for me

 

[zsazsa85]

Sounds like another perpetuated myth to me... what do you base this 'fact' on? I find mine relatively inexpensive to keep.....

Then you are one of the luckiest. Here where I live,everything is expensive because of the shipping and just because it's Canada. For example to buy extra bugs costs me 140$ a month at least. To buy his permanent 2-2-4 screen cage was 196$ which you can buy for 70$ in the US....and this is an endless list. But I try to get everything for him.

 

[Carlton]

Maybe, after reading this thread all we can really conclude about husbandry, chameleon behavior, forum member behavior, writing style interpretations, or the fate of the planet is...

"Well, it depends..."

 

[symphonica]

Threads like this crack me up. We all have ran across replies that arent what we think is right. We have all posted something someone else doesnt agree with. But it is exactly that, it is an opinion on how you perceive the message and its based on your own limited personal experiences. We are on a open forum with a wide variety of age, maturity, intelligence, etc...If you want precise reading information that is to your liking. Write book.

I always see so much hypocrisy and double standards on open forums.

 

[CarlC]

Great post Nick!

Carl

 

[shmeenakoz]

Animal husbandry is a science so in the truest form of science there is always opposite sides, correct?! Otherwise it wouldn't be science. So why is everyone getting all huffy, or taking things so personally? If your a newbie, semi newbie, wannabe newbie, senior keeper, etc., I think that one should take in all the information and just do what fits for them and their current situation. If you fail, then mark it down and change it. If it panned out the outcome was good then stick with it until an adjustment should be made due to an unwanted circumstance. What is so wrong with that? Forming ones own hypothesis and conclusions is part of the fun in all this right? Of course its not fun if something goes south but hey thats life! We all got into this hopefully knowing all the risks and challenges. If it wasn't somewhat challenging then I don't think many of us would be doing it.

 

[jannb]

(I'm not the only one either- if you are using husbandry that encourages low basking temps for veileds and greatly reduced vit a - you are going off the work one of the forum members here pioneered. She has the longest lived female veileds I've ever heard of- several years and supposedly holds the record for longevity, but guess what she uses for enclosures? Glass fish tanks.)


It is no more difficult to control temperature in glass for a chameleon than it is for a giant day gecko or bearded dragon or baby iguana, etc.[/QUOTE


Yes, and Lynda (Kinyonga) lives in Canada in a very cold climate and if I lived in a cold climate in a cold old house I would probable consider more glass. I do use allot of glass with Parsonii to help with humidity. Lynda keeps veileds alive for 6 to 8 years and has more than 25 years of experience. When you were just starting out and using glass how long were you keeping your chameleon alive? In my past 7 years of being a member of this forums I have seen so many new keeper posting with their chams in small glass aquariums and they were literally cooking them and most were so far gone it was nothing I could do or say to help them save their chameleon.


The problem is most new keepers can't control the temps for any reptile much less a chameleon.

 

[zsazsa85]

Maybe, after reading this thread all we can really conclude about husbandry, chameleon behavior, forum member behavior, writing style interpretations, or the fate of the planet is...

"Well, it depends..."

Well said!

 

[broderp]

Then you are one of the luckiest. Here where I live,everything is expensive because of the shipping and just because it's Canada. For example to buy extra bugs costs me 140$ a month at least. To buy his permanent 2-2-4 screen cage was 196$ which you can buy for 70$ in the US....and this is an endless list. But I try to get everything for him.

It's economics. If someone makes 200K a year, they would think dropping $400 a month on a pet as nothing. Some one else making 60K a year may think it's a lot. Another example is the cost of living. Stuff if California typically cost more than stuff in Ohio. Someone breeding chams or someone with 4 chams may consider it expensive compared to me who has one. See my point?

But based on this thread, simply saying chameleons are expensive to keep is one of those thing IMO that the OP was saying. Someone who didn't take the time to think about it could walk away thinking that Chams are ubber expensive and spread that like wildfire.

 

[DanSB]

I have two chameleons I am keeping as follows:

They live together in a good sized glass tank.

I have a lovely planted bottom with natural substrate.

For hydration I use a waterfall and a small pool.

Lighting is a CFL uvb bulb, a incandescent full spectrum for day heat and a red heat lamp for night.

For added heating there is a heat pad.

Food is large superworms for treats, mostly crickets gut loaded with those orange flukers things.

They are both like 6 years old and I've bred them many times.

Everything above is a lie by the way... Some people exaggerate their success, some lie about it, many might be misled as to why they succeed. Some things are genuinely bad, some are only thought to be bad. It doesn't help when established reputable people lie to save face, or when beginners pass on information they just learned without understanding it.

 

[rshewfel]

Good discussion. I'll add to the proper enclosure discussion.

The first Veiled Chameleons I owned was in 1994. The male developed MBD. He made almost a full recovery after I supplemented him with calcium containing D3. He then went on to mate with my female. I hatched multiple successful clutches. All while housing them separately in 20 gallon glass aquariums, containing no UVB bulb. All while feeding them a diet of probably 80-90% crickets and 10-20% mealworms. They both seamed healthy a couple years later, when I sold them.

I then experimented with wood cages, screen cages, various custom made glass enclosures, plastic tubs, large drywalled enclosures, and free range. In 2004 I owned my last veiled.

My final conclusion, a person can successfully keep a veiled chameleon, if you have-
1) a spray bottle
2) a cricket supply
3) a light bulb
4) calcium with D3
If you plan on breeding-
5) an egg laying bin (sand, soil, or sand and soil, or???)

I can't even honestly say that these are all a must. For instance, I never tried just a drip system, just mealworms, or just a UVB bulb with no calcium suppliment. My calcium requirement is based off my first male that I mentioned earlier; hardly conclusive evidence.

What about a cage? Oh yeah. You can use any of the cages mentioned, or.... no cage at all.

What about a plant? I mostly used real plants but had the occasional fake plant. However, I can't honestly say a coat rack under your light bulb won't work.

If your not following my point, I'll sum it up. There is more than one way to keep a chameleon.

Do I support doing the bare minimum for your pet? No. However, if someone manages to raise healthy chameleons, who am I to judge? At the end of the day, we all decided it was ok to put a wild animal in a cage.

The major problem I have with this forum is that a large majority of people present their opinions as fact. In my opinion, presenting you opinion as fact, is arrogant, ignorant, and irresponsible. I can look past the young and inexperienced. However, when the senior members behave this way, believe it greatly discredits the forum.

 

[nick barta]

I have two chameleons I am keeping as follows:

They live together in a good sized glass tank.

I have a lovely planted bottom with natural substrate.

For hydration I use a waterfall and a small pool.

Lighting is a CFL uvb bulb, a incandescent full spectrum for day heat and a red heat lamp for night.

For added heating there is a heat pad.

Food is large superworms for treats, mostly crickets gut loaded with those orange flukers things.

They are both like 6 years old and I've bred them many times.

Everything above is a lie by the way... Some people exaggerate their success, some lie about it, many might be misled as to why they succeed. Some things are genuinely bad, some are only thought to be bad. It doesn't help when established reputable people lie to save face, or when beginners pass on information they just learned without understanding it.

I like your style…you had me until the waterfall….

Nick

 

[nick barta]

Good discussion. I'll add to the proper enclosure discussion.

The first Veiled Chameleons I owned was in 1994. The male developed MBD. He made almost a full recovery after I supplemented him with calcium containing D3. He then went on to mate with my female. I hatched multiple successful clutches. All while housing them separately in 20 gallon glass aquariums, containing no UVB bulb. All while feeding them a diet of probably 80-90% crickets and 10-20% mealworms. They both seamed healthy a couple years later, when I sold them.

I then experimented with wood cages, screen cages, various custom made glass enclosures, plastic tubs, large drywalled enclosures, and free range. In 2004 I owned my last veiled.

My final conclusion, a person can successfully keep a veiled chameleon, if you have-
1) a spray bottle
2) a cricket supply
3) a light bulb
4) calcium with D3
If you plan on breeding-
5) an egg laying bin (sand, soil, or sand and soil, or???)

I can't even honestly say that these are all a must. For instance, I never tried just a drip system, just mealworms, or just a UVB bulb with no calcium suppliment. My calcium requirement is based off my first male that I mentioned earlier; hardly conclusive evidence.

What about a cage? Oh yeah. You can use any of the cages mentioned, or.... no cage at all.

What about a plant? I mostly used real plants but had the occasional fake plant. However, I can't honestly say a coat rack under your light bulb won't work.

If your not following my point, I'll sum it up. There is more than one way to keep a chameleon.

Do I support doing the bare minimum for your pet? No. However, if someone manages to raise healthy chameleons, who am I to judge? At the end of the day, we all decided it was ok to put a wild animal in a cage.

The major problem I have with this forum is that a large majority of people present their opinions as fact. In my opinion, presenting you opinion as fact, is arrogant, ignorant, and irresponsible. I can look past the young and inexperienced. However, when the senior members behave this way, believe it greatly discredits the forum.

Robert,

I agree with your statement that "a large majority of people present their opinions as fact." That is why I appreciate and value the posts of so many members, both with lots of posts, and also some with not so many posts. The list is much longer, but Olimpia, Carol, Mike Fischer, Fluxlizard (I always think of a lizard igniting…), Pigglet, Sandra, and Ataraxia are examples of being great coaches who don't come across as "my way or the highway."

CHEERS!

Nick