Erroneous Conclusions Hurt Husbandry

[nick barta]

I always see so much hypocrisy and double standards on open forums.

Thats the problem when you deal with humans instead of animals!

"We have found the enemy, it is us."

CHEERS!

Nick

 

[Mike Fisher]

The list is much longer, but Olimpia, Carol, Mike Fischer, Fluxlizard (I always think of a lizard igniting…), Pigglet, Sandra, and Ataraxia are examples of being great coaches who don't come across as "my way or the highway."

CHEERS!

Nick

"Blush" Thanks Nick. I haven't been on the forums much lately because I've been swamped with machining orders, some for NASA competitions with tight deadlines. I try to contribute when I can. If anyone has specific questions regarding Fischers Chameleons, specifically K. multi, feel free to drop me a PM.

 

[Montium]

The conclusions can often be wrong but that doesn't mean the altered steps weren't right. Having kept a number of interesting plants and animals in my life. I find that I draw on many different hobbies to care for my chameleons.

As with ANY online forum there is always going to be folks that only know one way to do things and that way is the only way. Try talking about oil in a motorcycle forum, just up your life insurance first. Or perhaps filtration in an aquarium forum. It's all the same thing.

The real problem with forums in general is the apathy of experienced members that know there is another way but won't post it due to the *****ing it might generate or they are exhausted by the same question over and over again.

Add to that the fact that cold text can be read so many different ways, depending on the readers mood and it's surprising any forum lasts or keeps members around. There are folks that no longer post here that are an amazing source of information. Some of which is still in the forum somewhere but for most, they will never see it due to an inability to use the search function or being unable to come up with the proper terms to make the search worth while.

So while this thread might wind people up for a bit, it will most likely change nothing. People are what they are.

 

[Montium]

it would seem you can't say the other word for complaining loudly here lol

 

[rshewfel]

The conclusions can often be wrong but that doesn't mean the altered steps weren't right. Having kept a number of interesting plants and animals in my life. I find that I draw on many different hobbies to care for my chameleons.

As with ANY online forum there is always going to be folks that only know one way to do things and that way is the only way. Try talking about oil in a motorcycle forum, just up your life insurance first. Or perhaps filtration in an aquarium forum. It's all the same thing.

The real problem with forums in general is the apathy of experienced members that know there is another way but won't post it due to the *****ing it might generate or they are exhausted by the same question over and over again.

Add to that the fact that cold text can be read so many different ways, depending on the readers mood and it's surprising any forum lasts or keeps members around. There are folks that no longer post here that are an amazing source of information. Some of which is still in the forum somewhere but for most, they will never see it due to an inability to use the search function or being unable to come up with the proper terms to make the search worth while.

So while this thread might wind people up for a bit, it will most likely change nothing. People are what they are.

Good post. Took me a minute to figure out what the asterisks where. Lol.

I have no doubt that this thread wont change a thing. Sometimes people just need to vent.

I think forums just take some getting used to. It is very hard to stick around if you don't learn to ignore certain people. The hard thing is, the people you want to ignore want to comment in a lot of the threads.

 

[CarlC]

I think forums just take some getting used to. It is very hard to stick around if you don't learn to ignore certain people. The hard thing is, the people you want to ignore want to comment in a lot of the threads.

And people will keep asking 5 times a day the same question that was answered 10 posts down from theirs.

Carl

 

[rshewfel]

And people will keep asking 5 times a day the same question that was answered 10 posts down from theirs.

Carl

Yep. Sometimes in just the previous post.

 

[sandrachameleon]

"My chameleon likes to be handled, he comes to the door and walks right onto my hand." Chameleons don't like, love, or need us. They would climb up Godzilla as long as Godzilla was calm and taller than the chameleons present height.

love this! LOL

I have to disagree with you on a few of these. Of course Chris Anderson is successful with using glass and many other experienced keepers but IMO is it so much easier for a new keeper to keep the temps and ventilation correct in a screen enclosure and I doubt even Chris would keep a veiled or panther in glass and that's the species that most of our new member here keep.

gotta disagree with you.
If you live somewhere with a very low humidity and generally cold temps, a screen cage is NOT a good choice. You probably live somewhere relatively warm and humid, so for you a screen cage makes sense. But for others, it just doesn't. You can get solid walled enclosures in large sizes that are very good - with entirely sufficient ventilation - that even new keepers can easily be successful with.

 

[ataraxia]

I still dont see how thinking "your chameleon likes you cause it climbs out on you willingly". Is a erroneous conclusion that hurts husbandry.

To be honest, It gets stupid cold here in the midwest. With the electric furnace running the humidity in the house is so low my lips dry out at night. Screen still works fine here from montanes to panthers.

 

[BrucenBruce]

At the very least, I think we can say that "My chameleon feels comfortable enough with my presence to climb out . . . "

My two hide behind their perches and/or shake like leaves when I put my hand into their cages, though they will express an interest if that hand is holding their feeder cups! They're still young though, and beautiful, so I forgive them. I expect them to act like chameleons - any interaction would be a bonus!

~Bruce

P.S. - One of the most fascinating, thought-provoking threads I've encountered since finding this place, and a thoroughly enjoyable read!

 

[jannb]

The experienced keepers that use glass do very well and I can certainly understand how it would be a plus in a cold climate. Lynda (Kinyonga) also lives in Canada and has been keeping veileds over 25 years in glass and keeps them cooler and feeds less to help cut back with egg production. I free range all my animals but the problem I see here on the forums with glass is by the time the new keeper post about their sick chameleon (usually a veiled) they are literally cooking it in a small glass aquarium usually with a 100 watt bulb. If I can encourage new keepers to start with a screen cage, I see that as a plus for the poor chameleon since 90% of the time the new keepers are not using a digital temp gun and if anything at all a cheap analog. Since I've been a member here trying to help new keeper get off to a good start, I can't tell you how many dead chameleons I've had to see or read about.

Also, I am short and the Cham trees are very tall and my guys climb down to me.

 

[ataraxia]

Also, I am short and the Cham trees are very tall and my guys climb down to me.

+1 Jannb I too have cages above my head. Donahue and a few others will climb down out of the cage and onto me. I posted a video during last summer. Donahue would not leave me for a tree. That is not uncommon for him though. I literally have to make him get off of me, even if what im trying to put him on is taller. Does it mean he necessarily likes me? Nope but to him....Im the bug god!~

Back to my original post statement in this thread. Limited to our own personal experiences...

 

[Trace]

Also, I am short and the Cham trees are very tall and my guys climb down to me.

You aren't short, you are fun sized!

 

[rshewfel]

The experienced keepers that use glass do very well and I can certainly understand how it would be a plus in a cold climate. Lynda (Kinyonga) also lives in Canada and has been keeping veileds over 25 years in glass and keeps them cooler and feeds less to help cut back with egg production. I free range all my animals but the problem I see here on the forums with glass is by the time the new keeper post about their sick chameleon (usually a veiled) they are literally cooking it in a small glass aquarium usually with a 100 watt bulb. If I can encourage new keepers to start with a screen cage, I see that as a plus for the poor chameleon since 90% of the time the new keepers are not using a digital temp gun and if anything at all a cheap analog. Since I've been a member here trying to help new keeper get off to a good start, I can't tell you how many dead chameleons I've had to see or read about.

Also, I am short and the Cham trees are very tall and my guys climb down to me.

I definitely don't think you have to be experienced to use a glass terrarium. The people that cook their chameleon in a glass enclosure probably would have killed it in a screen enclosure.

Either way, myself, and I think most people, don't have a problem with screen enclosures. If you want to advise using one, go right ahead. It's the people that insist they are a must, even though they have no experience with other types of cages. There is nothing more annoying than posting a picture of your chameleon and having a bunch of "know it alls" critique your husbandry.

As for chameleon intentionally approaching people, there is no doubt in my mind that this does happen. I have had several chameleons that would crawl over to me when I entered a room. I just always assumed they associated me with food. They also associated the spray bottle with water. I often caught them licking the nozzle when I walked in.

 

[Hakai]

I haven't read all these posts, because they're just too lengthy for my lazy brain to take in at the moment, I would just like to put in my two cents. The humanization of chameleons is somewhat justifiable. I believe chameleons have the capacity to like or dislike, not just make practical life or death decisions. The example of a chameleon climbing from higher to lower just to be with it's owner is one example. Another example is taste. Many chameleons do not like strawberries (including mine). Mine started to chew it, then he spat it right out, and will never accept it again if offered. The fact that he makes a cognitive decision to reject the offered food, is proof that they have the ability to choose for themselves based off of preference, not what will be beneficial to there livelihood. Strawberries are good for chameleons, when fed in moderation, so there is no logical reason for the chameleon to reject it, besides the fact that he simply does not like it, because the strawberry is not a threat to the chameleons life. I know tomatoes are good for me, but I think they are gross, so I do not eat them.

 

[brownie64]

Don't judge

I have two chameleons I am keeping as follows:

They live together in a good sized glass tank.

I have a lovely planted bottom with natural substrate.

For hydration I use a waterfall and a small pool.

Lighting is a CFL uvb bulb, a incandescent full spectrum for day heat and a red heat lamp for night.

For added heating there is a heat pad.

Food is large superworms for treats, mostly crickets gut loaded with those orange flukers things.

They are both like 6 years old and I've bred them many times.

Everything above is a lie by the way... Some people exaggerate their success, some lie about it, many might be misled as to why they succeed. Some things are genuinely bad, some are only thought to be bad. It doesn't help when established reputable people lie to save face, or when beginners pass on information they just learned without understanding it.

Forgive me if this comes off the wrong way. I have successfully kept veiled chameleons for over 16 years in a glass aquarium, and I have had great success. I've even had one live for almost 9 years, and have bred them successfully many times. So I know for a fact it can be done, so you shouldn't call someone a liar unless you know the facts.

I now incorporate both by putting a screened in enclosure on the top for fresh air, and I use the aquarium for humidity control. I also have a lovely planted substrate. As I said I have been doing this for a long time, and have never had an issue with impaction, or mold. I have either been real lucky, or just maybe it's not that big of an issue. I think the benefits of this type of substrate far outweigh the risk by helping maintain humidity levels. Don't they have this type of substrate in the wild? Now I do pump fresh air into the aquarium to stop the air from getting stale.

Not saying this should be the preferred method however. Just saying it works for me.

 

[Furcifer Brussis]

A problem i often see is people humanizing them. They treat the cham the way they would want to be treated but that cham isn't a person and doesn't want to be treated like we do. My daughter does this with all kinds of animals and has killed them from time to time (in the goodness of her heart) as a result. Chams want to have THEIR needs met, not ours. One example among many is when people don't want their cham to be "lonely," But as we know, chams really dig being alone.

 

[Coley]

Well said.

Although I agree with you in general, and a lot of fact seems to be coming from personal opinion or misguided or incorrect interpretation.

You can not however remove the HUMAN factor in many things. By that I mean how WE process and interpret globally as a species (human) and relate it to our own sensibilites.



We say "he likes it" because we see that our chams not run away from or they welcome the siduation. (goes to it) Logic tells me that if something is desireable or pleaseant, you don't run away form it. If it's scarey or bad, you don't tolorate it or run from it.




Again, human perception. Would any animal go towards danger? Instinctivly they shy from it. And YES, I have sat in a chair that is LOWER than my cham, and he goes to the door and 'wipes' the window until I let him out. He then crawls DOWN towards my and into my lap or arm, which is very much lower than his basking spot high up in his terrarium. Call it instict or recalled actions, but we percieve it as them liking or wanting something. To me this says we are not dagerous to them and they are secure enough to allow us to handle. It is really "liking to be held?" debateable, but WE see it that way, and there is nothing wrong with it in my book.

Your post is very valid, but I believe you are discussing two different topics that probably deserve thier own threads.

The humanization of cham responses and fact vs myth of husbandry.

Nice topic though.

 

[brownie64]

???????

As someone who used glass fish tanks exclusively for a few years as a chameleon beginner years ago, and then continued to use them part time for several more, I'm going to disagree. I bred successfully more than one generation of panthers and veileds in those tanks, and some of those animals were among the longest lived and beautiful, healthiest chameleons I've seen. I also bred other species in those tanks- carpets, quads, montiums, dilepis, campani. I also had friends who bred other species in tanks- one bred jacksons over a few generations in fish tanks. Why? Because the CIN hadn't pounded screen cages into everyone's head quite yet when we all started.

As far as my experience goes- it was far easier to control temperature and humidity in those tanks and get things right. You don't constantly loose huge volumes of air which take heat and moisture with them. But believe it or not, you do get a steady exchange of air from a chimney effect- cool air being pulled in from the top, across the floor of the tank, and up as it warms under the heat light and exists the top and goes on up and away from the tank. In those tanks a light misting morning and evening (enough to cover everything lightly in droplets without making puddles on the floor) and a live potted pothos vine respirating and a 20-30 minute daily drip from a drip cup into a catch bowl was plenty to keep the humidity up, yet everything dried out completely and although I live in a fairly humid environment, there was never any mold or fungus, etc.

And if you think about it- many breeders use tanks or plastic tubs to raise babies. There is no difference between those tubs and an aquarium as far as airflow conditions. My question once the screaming screen crowd formed was always "at what age did your chameleon suddenly require more airflow?"

I switched for to screen for 3 reasons-
1) I wanted to move the lizards outdoors in the summer. Can't do that with glass.

2) quality of life reasons- I'm a little ashamed to admit it now, but I was breeding everything mostly in 29 gallon tanks. There are others who have used smaller- the breeder I bought my veileds from at the time was using 20 gallon high tanks for males and 10 to 15 gallon tanks for females. He was my main influence- there simply weren't lots of people breeding chameleons at all yet, let alone any giving out step by step advice that led easily to success and he was willing to give it out so it was no more difficult for me to start than following a recipe.

This sounds tiny today, and I agree that it is, BUT- mindset was a little different in those days (22 years ago) when it came to tank size. Gary Ferguson, whose work I'm sure you are familiar with (did multiple nutritional studies with panthers, as well as field work, kept and bred panthers over generations in his lab, co-authored The Panther Chameleon: Color Variation, Natural History, Conservation, and Captive Management and Chameleons: Care and Breeding of Jackson's, Panther, Veiled, and Parson's mentioned keeping his breeders in large opaque storage tubs in his lab (probably 20 gallon size) and mentions in both books enclosures with minimal dimensions for adult panthers that are exactly 10 gallon aquarium tank size. But also mentions the sides and rear of enclosores that small should be covered to discourage pawing to get out. (Which I found to be true as well- I used to use green paper to cover the rear and sides and leave the front open, the chams were content with that).

And in my defense, I felt at the time that I was taking the care guidelines I was given a step up by going with 29 gallon size rather than smaller 20 gallon tanks.

So, I began using screen enclosures when I started thinking about quality of life issues- I wanted to take them outdoors during the summers and I wanted to see my lizards stretch out and go for a stroll that could last more than a few steps. That is why even today I'm not a fan of the little 18"x18" floorspace cages for female veileds and panthers.

But I know for a fact from years of experience actually doing it, that not only are glass tanks fine, but chameleons can be healthy and content in much smaller than the often parroted 2x2x4' enclosures. (I'm not the only one either- if you are using husbandry that encourages low basking temps for veileds and greatly reduced vit a - you are going off the work one of the forum members here pioneered. She has the longest lived female veileds I've ever heard of- several years and supposedly holds the record for longevity, but guess what she uses for enclosures? Glass fish tanks.) I measure contentment by overall appearance, vigour, coloration, appetite and behavior. I also know from this same experience that the need for huge volumes of airflow is just a myth, plain and simple.

3) Budget reasons. I wanted much larger enclosures, and glass is far more expensive than screen at those sizes. And glass would require a set of second cages if I wanted to move animals outdoors for real sunlight and weather variation in the summer, which further increases expense.

In my opinion these are all valid reasons for choosing screen enclosures, and don't require making stuff up.

When I get involved in these discussions in the past, I do say I used aquaria, but I don't think I've ever said anything about what size other than "large". The reason is I bite my tongue for quality of life reasons for the animals. But I do sometimes hold back and bite my tongue when I see people fly off about how a cage *needs* to be 2x2x4 or it just doesn't work, and I know that just isn't true.

It is no more difficult to control temperature in glass for a chameleon than it is for a giant day gecko or bearded dragon or baby iguana, etc.

Please forgive my ignorance, but who are the CIN?? Sorry but I've been doing things my way for so long haven't herd of them.

 

[fluxlizard]

The CIN is defunct. It was the chameleon information network. Before the internet really came into widespread effective use, the newsletter published by the CIN was *the* primary source of information about chameleon husbandry. Early on, it kind of struggled along, and then a couple of editors picked it up and really put a professional polish to it. But they were more actively involved in the dissemination of husbandry information than the previous editor(s). The result was all husbandry in the articles was basically their husbandry, and they had a very strong belief that screen cages were mandatory for chameleons. Articles prior to their editorship did not take this strict single minded view. But there were only a few truly good issues prior to their taking it over, and they ran it for years until it ended. In spite of my difference of opinion on screen cages, it was an excellent publication overall and I still enjoy referring back to the articles.