Euthanasia

[Pure]

A high tolerance to hypoxia is not to say they wont die, just thats its slow and therefore not considered humane and further that without physical destruction of the brain afterward, cannot be garanteed, unless you leave the herp in the chamber overnight, nobodys going to do that pure.

Euthanasia means 'good death' and is widely regarded to include quick death. Reptiles gassed with carbon monoxide have recovered after being thought dead. Again, high tolerance to hypoxia (lack of oxygen) is not claiming they can live without oxygen, simply that compared to mammals, they need very little of it and can survive for quite some time on extremely low levels (stored in the blood).

Examples of decapitated reptiles shown to continue brain activity for up to 90 minutes afterward prove it so, despite your sarcasm.
Yes it can be done, but its hardly the best method.

No sarcasm meant. Just trying to explain that if you remove all O2 they will die. It can't be helped. Yes leaving them in there for an extended period of time should be done.

No matter how long it takes, if the animal is breathing there will not be any stress. As long as the lungs are getting "something" the brain doesn't realize it isn't usable. This is why people die in their sleep from CO and poisoning. Actually asphyxiation would be a better term. The CO displaces O2. Poisoning isn't really what happens.

So if the animal isn't caused pain and isn't stressed. How is it not humane? Just because it takes a little longer doesn't mean, inhumane. Least not IMHO.

Keeping them in the chamber overnight as you suggested IME is a bit of a stretch. That's not to say your wrong. It's not like I've put down hundreds of reptiles. You can count on 4 hands how many I've done this to. But out of those, 2-4 hrs (I never really watched a clock) was plenty and non of them woke up.

If your that worried about continued brain activity. After the animal falls asleep.

/sarcasm

Originally Posted by ciafardo 4
I know this sounds a bit barbaric but when i kept snakes i would just hold the rat by the tail and wack its head really hard on a metal table. I don't want to sound heartless i could never do this to any other creature but a rat i hate them they are not cute and furry they are filthy vermin and besides what the snake was gonna do would be far worse.

This was the way it was done with the feeders and reptiles in the shop, until I started working there. I did plenty of mice/rats/rabbits this way. I stopped though after the first time a mouse didn't die. He became brain damaged. It was a sad sight. I then demanded the owner allow me to build a CO2 chamber.

 

[jojackson]

This is why people die in their sleep from CO and poisoning. Actually asphyxiation would be a better term

Dont fall into the trap of assuming human biology for reptiles.

So if the animal isn't caused pain and isn't stressed. How is it not humane? Just because it takes a little longer doesn't mean, inhumane. Least not IMHO.

Reasonable statement, but remember the point of the 'home euthanasia' in the first place. You have an animal which is presumabley sufferring extreme pain, you want to end it FAST then 2-4 hrs is hardly acceptable. (least not for the owner)
This method therefore could be said to be inhumane because the animal suffers longer than nessesary.
Assuming the job done (no pain) only after total cessation of brain activity.
Lets not argue about how fast it 'appears' to fall asleep and weather or not its level of consciousness allows it to continue feeling pain or not since neither of us can really know, but the point is that the person euthing the herp wants to be sure its not!

A point to be made here in bold~ Euthansia~ 'good death', refers to 'for the animal', NOT to the person destroying it!

A visibly more peaceful death is not nessesarily the best! Out of site, out of mind, does not make it good either! (freezing).

 

[Lizardlover]

Dont fall into the trap of assuming human biology for reptiles.



Reasonable statement, but remember the point of the 'home euthanasia' in the first place. You have an animal which is presumabley sufferring extreme pain, you want to end it FAST then 2-4 hrs is hardly acceptable. (least not for the owner)
This method therefore could be said to be inhumane because the animal suffers longer than nessesary.
Assuming the job done (no pain) only after total cessation of brain activity.
Lets not argue about how fast it 'appears' to fall asleep and weather or not its level of consciousness allows it to continue feeling pain or not since neither of us can really know, but the point is that the person euthing the herp wants to be sure its not!

Couldnt have said it better myself, i was debating on posting but you took the words right out of my mouth, i agree 100%

 

[Bradley B]

Wow. About about 5 years ago I had to Euthanize one of my chams. I wrapped him in a towel and put him in the freezer. I did this because I read it was a humane method in a Chamelon book I own. I don't remember which one it is, but it is one of these 3:

(I will have to look up & see which book it is when I get home.)

Back then I didn't know about this site. I wish I did.

How do we know freezing causes pain?
If what I read in this forum is true, I now have alot more weight on my concious knowing that I caused pain to my little girl.

 

[jojackson]

Further, how does a person determin total cessation of brain activity where this method is used? I have known people to euth lizards in a co2 chamber, beleive it dead since it was limp, and having put it aside while cleaning the cage before burial, went to to retreive it, only to find it up and about again.
Unless you do indeed leave it for many hours in the co2 filled chamber, you just cant be sure, hence, physical destruction of the brain would be nessesary.
Who wants to bury/burn a pet that may be still alive albeit barely so? Not a pleasant thought is it!

I still maintain 'home euthanasia' be avoided at all cost and that barbiturate injection is the most effective, certain and humane of methods, and the most pleasing for the owner.

 

[jojackson]

Bradley B you did what you thought best at the time, no point in beating yourself up.

How do we know freezing causes pain?

Freezing for euthanasia is controversial and is
considered not acceptable by many as the formation of ice crystals in tissues may be
associated with pain.

 

[Pure]

Dont fall into the trap of assuming human biology for reptiles.



Reasonable statement, but remember the point of the 'home euthanasia' in the first place. You have an animal which is presumabley sufferring extreme pain, you want to end it FAST then 2-4 hrs is hardly acceptable. (least not for the owner)
This method therefore could be said to be inhumane because the animal suffers longer than nessesary.
Assuming the job done (no pain) only after total cessation of brain activity.
Lets not argue about how fast it 'appears' to fall asleep and weather or not its level of consciousness allows it to continue feeling pain or not since neither of us can really know, but the point is that the person euthing the herp wants to be sure its not!

A point to be made here in bold~ Euthansia~ 'good death', refers to 'for the animal', NOT to the person destroying it!

A visibly more peaceful death is not nessesarily the best! Out of site, out of mind, does not make it good either! (freezing).

Indeed and agreed. But I will still maintain that CO2 is the best option for the average Joe. If the animal isn't struggling or in any other visible signs of stress I can only assume he is in no pain. And knowing what I know about how asphyxiation works. Well pain isn't biologically possible. Be it reptile or mammal.

I think we are just going to have to agree to disagree. Your "opinion" Of weather or not CO2 is humane, isn't going to change my mind.

I still maintain 'home euthanasia' be avoided at all cost and that barbiturate injection is the most effective, certain and humane of methods, and the most pleasing for the owner.

See the problem really comes in when a person starts breeding. This is where I've been coming from the whole time. For one animal, yes take it to the vet and let them do it right. But what happens when you have 5,10,40 animals that need to be put down? The act of breeding in of itself comes with a certain responsibility. And if you breed you will at one point or another have to cull. Like it or not. You can't sell animals with genetic defects, and if you allow them to live it would be more inhumane than just ending the animals life. After all that's what nature would do.

This is why I originally made the statement about wanting to hear what the big breeders have to say. But seeing as none of them have commented. I can only assume they are afraid to be associated with such practices. I can only imagine how many animals a large breeding project puts down a month.

Back when I bred fish I culled them by the thousands (guppies go figure) The best way to do this is with clove oil. But when you have to cull several hundred fish a week..Clove oil isn't economical to use. I put them in a blender. It worked great and was over in less than a second.

So the same thing stands for Chams. Who can afford to pay a vet to cull for you. You would have to take out a second mortgage. This just isn't going to happen.

 

[jojackson]

If the animal isn't struggling or in any other visible signs of stress I can only assume he is in no pain. And knowing what I know about how asphyxiation works. Well pain isn't biologically possible. Be it reptile or mammal.

I think we are just going to have to agree to disagree. Your "opinion" Of weather or not CO2 is humane, isn't going to change my mind.

Lol, if its not in pain/suffering to begin with, why euthanise it? (culling being the exception) Even then, how many genetically deformed animals is someone producing? if its more than a few then you have to ask why? Something other than random chance is going on.

Nobody intends to change your mind.

Reasonable statement, but remember the point of the 'home euthanasia' in the first place. You have an animal which is presumabley sufferring extreme pain, you want to end it FAST then 2-4 hrs is hardly acceptable. (least not for the owner)
This method therefore could be said to be inhumane because the animal suffers longer than nessesary.

Since when does economics become an issue for the average pet owner? Again, if you cant afford the vet, and/or trips to, you cant afford the animal. I fail to see why you think that shouldnt apply to big breeders.
Indeed, lets agree to disagree!

 

[sandrachameleon]

After additional research, including discussions with two different vets, I have found that CO2 is not good option for reptiles.

 

[philanddeb818]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_thiopental

Sorry if this is elementary, especially considering this is such an emotional topic. I have had many animals and most have died of old age, but my heart goes out to you or anyone with this on their shoulders.

 

[Pure]

Lol, if its not in pain/suffering to begin with, why euthanise it? (culling being the exception) Even then, how many genetically deformed animals is someone producing? if its more than a few then you have to ask why? Something other than random chance is going on.

Nobody intends to change your mind.

Wile I will concede that death takes longer on a herp, I'm saying that they are out of pain not long after being put into the chamber. They are asleep, time has no meaning after that. Therefor to me, it's humane. The animals suffering is over. How long it takes to finish the unpleasant job is irrelevant.

Since when does economics become an issue for the average pet owner? Again, if you cant afford the vet, and/or trips to, you cant afford the animal. I fail to see why you think that shouldnt apply to big breeders.
Indeed, lets agree to disagree!

I know that most of your hatchlings should turn out ok. But inevitably you will get some from time to time that are not. Now the small time breeder only doing a couple of clutches a yr may be able to afford the vet bill to deal with their culls (if they have any). Having this done isn't what I would call cheap. So having to pay for even one cuts into the profits (if there are any) and seeing how little you make off of 1 or 2 clutches. It isn't smart economics to pay the vet bill for something you can do yourself.

When I think about big breeders I'm talking about the guys with a warehouse full of cham cages. You know those guys have to do some seriious culling. I don't see how they would be able to stay in business if they took each animal to the vet to be culled. They would have to sell their inventory for much more than they already do.

 

[ocular_factitus]

That is a rather young cham to call old. Also, not eating for 4 days isn't a big deal. Sounds like this was a fixable issue.

By the time i had him he was full grown, like i said he was WC. I'm sorry about the freezing, but in the mid 90's there weren't many options for euthanasia. Sue me.

 

[chambabysitter1]

By the time i had him he was full grown, like i said he was WC. I'm sorry about the freezing, but in the mid 90's there weren't many options for euthanasia. Sue me.

Euthanasia didn't exist in the mid 90's?

Everytime someone corrects a statement you make, you tend to get very defensive. Perhaps you should think about the weight of whatever you are typing before hitting "submit reply", and then having to play damage control soon after.

 

[jojackson]

When I think about big breeders I'm talking about the guys with a warehouse full of cham cages. You know those guys have to do some seriious culling. I don't see how they would be able to stay in business if they took each animal to the vet to be culled. They would have to sell their inventory for much more than they already do.

Pure, Id be a fool not to see the logic of that, but thread is about humane euthanasia (and what constitutes that) by the average joe at home, not the economics of big breeders, so while your point is valid for them, economics is a little off topic.

 

[Minihuey]

I decapitated mine.. how is this not humane? She did not suffer.


Just a question on how desensitized we are.

 

[jojackson]

I decapitated mine.. how is this not humane? She did not suffer.


Just a question on how desensitized we are.

She very likely did!

http://www.anapsid.org/decap.html

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/picrender.fcgi?artid=1680226&blobtype=pdf

Indeed, one thing that reptiles posess that we don't, is a high tolerance to low levels of oxygen. This means that if you mortally injure or decapitate a reptile, it may remain conscious with the ability to feel and respond to pain for some considerable time (over an hour in some cases after decapitation). So it could be argued that in some circumstances they suffer for longer than we would following mortal injury.

from http://www.animalsasia.org/index.php?UID=ODRPEVKWYRY

http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/nzva/nzvj/1986/00000034/F0020001/art00005

 

[Minihuey]

She very likely did!

http://www.anapsid.org/decap.html

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/picrender.fcgi?artid=1680226&blobtype=pdf



from http://www.animalsasia.org/index.php?UID=ODRPEVKWYRY

http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/nzva/nzvj/1986/00000034/F0020001/art00005

Jojackson!

You are filled with fucking interesting information. Dont think I will be using this method for future chameleons.. not that im hoping the situation repeats itself.

 

[jojackson]

You can only imagine how many snakes have suffered over the years after being decapitated with shovels and spades by folk thinking they were making it quick.

 

[crazydart]

not so sure about co2

I used a co2 chamber for rats at one time. I will start by saying my design was sound and I went way out of my way to ensure it was functioning very well. I found that first off if not done properly they did suffer, and after more research I found it can burn their lungs. I cant verify that, but from my own observations I would be willing to buy it. So here is the real problem I have with it... I would gas rats to feed to snakes... expensive snakes which I didnt want chewed up... every once in a while I would come back and find the rat alive as ever. Basically, it was 1 of 2 things... the rats could play dead really well as they are smart, but I wouldnt expect a rat even playing dead would be fond of laing in front of a snake... or 2 the rats had been put to sleep, but didnt fully die. Their breathing would stop, and short of taking a pulse, they are dead... until they get up and walk around. Basically I am saying co2 could actually fail to kill something and in this case cause much pain.

 

[summoner12]

I did not... and don't plan to read this entire thread... but here is my input to the OP.

From my understanding... the only 'legal' way is to use CO2. A person told me that their vet told them this is the most humane way, and will get you into the least amount of 'trouble' if someone has an issue with you putting an animal down.

Of course putting an animal down should only be done if you have no other options.