Even Dr. Mader Knows Reptiles Show Affection to Their Owners

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That's great and all, but if they went to another home that treated them the same, they'd forget you in a heartbeat(at least that's my beliefs). Sorry I love the idea of bonding with animals, I want to believe reptiles can, but I have trouble with that. Maybe because I don't even bond that well with most humans haha.
 
Maybe I'm wrong, but my chickens know that if something happens they run to me but they won't let me hold them. It's my belief that if an animal doesn't like being handled they will let you know, that they tolerate you, but they don't like you. I won't handle my animals if I know they don't enjoy being held. When my ball python begs to come out, I take the lid off and he crawls on my arm and just sits there. When I walk in my room he comes out of his hide and sits by the glass and watches me. Again I might be wrong, but if a snake doesn't enjoy being handled, they let you know quick. I'm not saying he absolutely loves me, and if I got rid of him he would always remember me, and be depressed for the rest of his life, but I don't think he just tolerates me being around. Even most dogs that have been rehomed act like they've been with the second family it's whole life.
 
I love that tree thing you have @jannb for the car, that is so neat, what a cool way to travel them around!! I need one of those for our afternoon sun time in the living room, what kind of wood did you make the top circle part out of? Thanks!

Also my two cents is my guys loves me, and I love them to pieces, that is good enough for me:D
 
I don't know about love, but I do think that they are intelligent enough to adapt to life with humans and learn to possibly trust us enough to explore our lives a little. I do believe they are more intelligent than we give them credit for and i believe that they can learn to adapt to life with us. Years back I would have flat out denied there was anything more than a simple brainstem and and that they simply operated out of pure instinct. That was until my best friends iguana showed me otherwise. If anybody came near he would gape, head-bob, hiss, tail whip and even bite if given the chance. Yet, when my friend would approach the cage he would come right to the door and if my friend opened the door he would climb right out onto his shoulder. They would literally walk together with the iggy on a leash and they swam together. Then, even more weirdly, he would come up and nudge my friends hand for some rubbing and would even sometimes roll on his back for a belly rub. Now, I don't know about love, but this iguana was certainly intelligent enough to use my friend to meet his needs. That is certainly more than just an instinct driven low functioning creature. It blew me away. You could also ask Bill and Kathy Love about there sulcatta tortoises that would come out of their burrows when they would come outside and follow them all over the yard and allow themselves to be touched/pet. Love? Probably not how we know it, but definitely some sort of needs. Go figure.
 
I love the word "love" I am also referred to by many as a "peace child":D So I love and care for lots of things, and I feel they are giving me the love back, it is not the exact appropriate or scientific word but I am sticking with it:love:
 
@Scottsquatch I was under the impression tortoises and iguananas were somewhat intelligent though? My point isn't that they can't learn to trust us, but that they won't miss us if someone else shows them a good home. Also do any females trust their keepers enough to lay eggs and dig their burrow in front of them?(maybe there are, idk, I'm wondering)
 
I think there is bonds that are obvious with reptiles and their keepers, but honestly most animals don't recognize when they have been rehomed, except certain individual mammals and people once they hit a certain age. And the egg laying thing in my opinion is completely basal instincts just like people have. I have watched my crested gecko lay eggs. Not chameleons though and in my opinion that shows they are smart.
 
jamest0o0 said:
@Scottsquatch I was under the impression tortoises and iguananas were somewhat intelligent though? My point isn't that they can't learn to trust us, but that they won't miss us if someone else shows them a good home. Also do any females trust their keepers enough to lay eggs and dig their burrow in front of them?(maybe there are, idk, I'm wondering)
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In that matter, i think you are right. I imagine if somebody is there to meet whatever type of need they might have they'd be fine.
 
jamest0o0 said:
Would like to see some of the non-fairytale land people chime in here, I'm being outnumbered.
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Ok, just read this thread. So...I've gotta agree with jamest0o0. I can't, and will never buy the idea that chameleons show true affection/bonding. I don't think they are as simple minded and some may say, but I think the way they process their surroundings and the situation are very primal at best. I've had multiple species of chameleons over the years, they would all come running when I walked up to their cages. I don't think this was bonding, but more likely conditioning. I think they have the mental capacity to associate food with individuals. Not just anyone can get the same reaction I get from my chameleons. I feel that I am associated with food, or let's call it positive reenforcement.
 
I think it hugely depends on what You view as a bond. Bonding is gaining somethings trust which is done by conditioning with all species. With chameleons it takes a while to gain their trust because they are a naturally suspicious species. I also think it depends hugely on how the individual chameleon and person go about and react to the trust building. Neptune trusts me more. Which anyone who knows him he is a major brat. It doesn't mean he doesn't try to escape all the time or that he doesn't foe at me. Currently we are still working on things. I also view a bond as something that is constantly being tested through out life. I honestly don't know what dogs or cats you guys have dealt with but obviously you have had some really trusting and friendly ones.
 
This discussion has been raked over from side to side back and forth. It keeps comming up! Why? Because we each believe what we do and feel serious about what we believe! There is the scientific approach where we look at the brain and say, na, that is a useless blob of neurons not capable of any thing but instinct! The other approach is the experiencial approach. Despite for having a few degrees in sience, I belong to this categorie! I do not blindly follow sience. I adjust it according to my experience! How could I not! Here are some conclusions I came to after thousands of hours of caring for many, many chameleons of many different kinds: 1) not all chameleons are intellectually equals! (Just like with them humaaans). 2) Some chameleons are more stubborn than others. 3) chameleons show preferences. 4) chameleons are very capable of learning. 5) some of my chameleons seem to like being with and interacting with the people/persons of their preference. 6) some chameleons do not show any distress, in the short term or long term, for being handled. 7) some of my chameleons that has gotten accustomed to lots of handeling show restlessness that I interpret as distress when the amount of handeling has been decreasd. These chameleons start pacing back and forth following my every move till I take them out and let them climb around from hand to hand for a little while, while rubbing them here and there. When I put them back in their cage after the interaction they are totally content again. 8) when a dog, bird or primate acts like this we attribute it to inteligence! 9) very few interactions between my chameleons and i have to do with food or water. 10) we humans attach our own interpretation to what ever we want how ever we want and call it scientific proof or statistical proof.

My conclusion: What ever! I love my chameleons and feel cozy towards them and they don't seem to mind so I will keep doing what feels right and has no decernsble short term or long term ill affects! Haha! They are my chameleons not yours! Lol
 
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Matt Vanilla Gorilla said:
This discussion has been raked over from side to side back and forth. It keeps comming up! Why? Because we each believe what we do and feel serious about what we believe! There is the scientific approach where we look at the brain and say, na, that is a useless blob of neurons not capable of any thing but instinct! The other approach is the experiencial approach. Despite for having a few degrees in sience, I belong to this categorie! I do not blindly follow sience. I adjust it according to my experience! How could I not! Here are some conclusions I came to after thousands of hours of caring for many, many chameleons of many different kinds: 1) not all chameleons are intellectually equals! (Just like with them humaaans). 2) Some chameleons are more stubborn than others. 3) chameleons show preferences. 4) chameleons are very capable of learning. 5) some of my chameleons seem to like being with and interacting with the people/persons of their preference. 6) some chameleons do not show any distress, in the short term or long term, for being handled. 7) some of my chameleons that has gotten accustomed to lots of handeling show restlessness that I interpret as distress when the amount of handeling has been decreasd. These chameleons start pacing back and forth following my every move till I take them out and let them climb around from hand to hand for a little while, while rubbing them here and there. When I put them back in their cage after the interaction they are totally content again. 8) when a dog, bird or primate acts like this we attribute it to inteligence! 9) very few interactions between my chameleons and i have to do with food or water. 10) we humans attach our own interpretation to what ever we want how ever we want and call it scientific proof or statistical proof.

My conclusion: What ever! I love my chameleons and feel cozy towards them and they don't seem to mind so I will keep doing what feels right and has no decernsble short term or long term ill affects! Haha! They are my chameleons not yours! Lol
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:D Septiseye wants to give you a kiss too :love: .
 
Jannb I love the pics !!!! Love the hat !
And James what do you mean I can’t walk my new panther on a leash this thread was a very fun read. And all animals have different personalities. Now I admit my only experience with reptiles is a dragon, but she has hissed when I have put her back in her cage. I have had Caiques ( parrots) one who would bite and follow around a person he didn’t like,( normally gray haired with glasses) I do agree they do let you know, I just don’t believe in pushing or forcing interactions. Trust is important in all relationships including with reptiles. My newbie 2 cents
 
@Matt Vanilla Gorilla That's all well and good, I'm not telling you personally what to think or believe, you're an exceptional keeper. The problem is what happens when someone with a veiled Cham that lives in a fish tank or obviously has a health condition says the same thing, because we've all seen it before. The "they're my chameleons and I know they're happy and healthy!" Meanwhile this person's Cham dies weeks later.... what you're doing is fine, but that dismissive attitude of science is dangerous to the masses. You're keeping needs no changes, but if you want to help the majority of chams and new Cham keepers it's best kept to yourself. It can be easily misconstrued.
 
When you are bonded it's hard to break away, a chameleon wouldn't care. They will react to how you care for them, good or bad, but they won't be emotionally attached to you. If you're good to them they'll like you, if not they won't. In simple terms.

I get where you guys are coming from, but I guess I have a boring/dark at times world view.
 
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