Eye Flushing In Chameleons

[jamest0o0]

People should be free to constructively criticize. That gives petr the opportunity to explain. If we just blindly follow him, or anyone because of their status, then we're only hurting our ability to gain knowledge. Once again, I'm not attacking petr. I watched it and feel meh about it, some could try it, others probably shouldnt. That's about all I can add regarding the video.

 

[DocZ]

Understanding a process is always good. If you don't feel comfortable doing it, you simply would not do it yourself. At least now you know the process.
I don't know why people are so against knowledge.

I realize most here are not long term keepers and thus don't have all the experiences. For some of us however, if this was part of the treatment I would be completely comfortable doing it.


I don't see where he said to do it as a preventive measure. It would be done as part of a treatment.

I have seen many people make weekly trips to the vet, just to do a procedure they are uncomfortable with.

How many give their own dog shots ? How many cant give their dog a shot.

Whether I do a procedure, or a vet does it, I still want to know the procedure.


Do not fear knowledge that you are uncomfortable with. Suggesting that someone would do this, wile being afraid or uncomfortable just doesn't make sense.

Some of us here have more experience, and do preform many procedures at home. To say this is wrong is to say we are not allowed secret vet knowledge.
Many procedures can easily be learned. The difference between a vet and someone like me, is I know some specific things, They know in depth about far far more. But they will show you the one thing if you ask. Like "How do I give my dog a shot ?" They will show you. This doesn't mean you are now a vet, you can just perform that procedure needed for your pet.

I totally agree that understanding the process is always good. I doubt most here are averse to the knowledge, but many are obviously uncomfortable with the idea of performing the procedure themselves. I think I would be too

I perform several different procedures at work, and I also teach others how to perform these procedures. They are skills, with practice and appropriate supervision, I could teach all of you to do them with a high degree of success

the skill itself is not secret vet knowledge. Again with practice and perhaps more supervision than watching Petr perform the procedure on YouTube a few times any of us could do it.

The issue with any procedure is they all have potential complications, some can be serious or even fatal. It’s important to also understand the potential complications and the treatment for those as well. I can teach you how to place a central line for venous access, but would you know how to place a chest tube if you caused a pneumothorax? What if you caused hemorrhage, could repair it, or at least stabilize the patient until appropriate help arrived?

I suspect most people would worry about the potential complications and their ability to handle them, or the chameleons ability to avoid long term damage from them more than whether they can perform the procedure itself

 

[CasqueAbove]

I don't really feel any type of way about this. But I gotta say, every other post you're talking about your experience. Dude, I'm a longterm reptile keeper too, but I'm younger than you(28). Let's be honest, anyone that kept reptiles before the 2000's new little of what they were doing. So chill out. You have a veiled, and have bred veileds. Cool, but that's not that extraordinary of a feat. I know people that have bred wild melleri and parsonii that brag less lol. I like your contributions and I'm not against what you're saying, just the way you come off.

Relax don't go overboard. Never claimed to be an expert, but yes over the years through various connections you learn more. It is not about keeping one species for a long time. It is the general knowledge gained from years of experience. Not what you read or a single accomplishment. It is overall time in husbandry of many animals. Many of the problems we see in Chameleons are also common in many other exotic species. So as far as Chams I have not owned them too long, and only report observation and opinion. But the care of exotics, and the importance of their special needs, even down to trace elements many years.

Sorry If I come off wrong, I have just been told too much crap over the years.

Find a long term reefer or discus keeper, they know the importance of nutrients and staying exactly in parameters.
Many birds, particularly finches, run into the same issues with improper diet.

 

[CasqueAbove]

I totally agree that understanding the process is always good. I doubt most here are averse to the knowledge, but many are obviously uncomfortable with the idea of performing the procedure themselves. I think I would be too

I perform several different procedures at work, and I also teach others how to perform these procedures. They are skills, with practice and appropriate supervision, I could teach all of you to do them with a high degree of success

the skill itself is not secret vet knowledge. Again with practice and perhaps more supervision than watching Petr perform the procedure on YouTube a few times any of us could do it.

The issue with any procedure is they all have potential complications, some can be serious or even fatal. It’s important to also understand the potential complications and the treatment for those as well. I can teach you how to place a central line for venous access, but would you know how to place a chest tube if you caused a pneumothorax? What if you caused hemorrhage, could repair it, or at least stabilize the patient until appropriate help arrived?

I suspect most people would worry about the potential complications and their ability to handle them, or the chameleons ability to avoid long term damage from them more than whether they can perform the procedure itself

I would agree with all this. I guess I should add that I would only do theses types of procedures after personal instruction, and If the vet advised. I did leave much out, like I am assuming a vet has diagnosed the need.

I think why I get frustrated is that so many act like it is too hard for a normal man. Then there is the other group , like you say, think they can learn it all from the internet.

I have treated many of my own issues, but only when I am 100% sure of cause. This pretty mush means small injuries.

BUT YES as with all medical issues IMHO

1) research, don't diagnose just gather info.
2) Get your diagnosis from an expert AKA vet.
3) Ask all you can at visit, learn what you can do at home, for ongoing.

I may sound confusing on the vet thing from some of my posts, but that is because we are usually looking at an animal that is ill from improper care and vets cant turn back time, which is what is really need in many cases.

 

[snitz427]

Understanding a process is always good. If you don't feel comfortable doing it, you simply would not do it yourself. At least now you know the process.
I don't know why people are so against knowledge.

I realize most here are not long term keepers and thus don't have all the experiences. For some of us however, if this was part of the treatment I would be completely comfortable doing it.


I don't see where he said to do it as a preventive measure. It would be done as part of a treatment.

I have seen many people make weekly trips to the vet, just to do a procedure they are uncomfortable with.

How many give their own dog shots ? How many cant give their dog a shot.

Whether I do a procedure, or a vet does it, I still want to know the procedure.


Do not fear knowledge that you are uncomfortable with. Suggesting that someone would do this, wile being afraid or uncomfortable just doesn't make sense.

Some of us here have more experience, and do preform many procedures at home. To say this is wrong is to say we are not allowed secret vet knowledge.
Many procedures can easily be learned. The difference between a vet and someone like me, is I know some specific things, They know in depth about far far more. But they will show you the one thing if you ask. Like "How do I give my dog a shot ?" They will show you. This doesn't mean you are now a vet, you can just perform that procedure needed for your pet.

The issue is not the knowledge of flushing the eyes... its using a blunted needle to do so. Eyes and pointy things don't usually mix well.

 

[NashansCamos]

The issue is not the knowledge of flushing the eyes... its using a blunted needle to do so. Eyes and pointy things don't usually mix well.

exactly... don't think i could take this risk. If mine had an eye problem... sure.

But by routine.....no. One little slip of the hand and an eyeless cham

 

[Tony_S]

yeah, that's one thing I won't be trying with my chameleon, I can see a new thread being posted here someday "help I stabbed my chams eye with a needle"

 

[CasqueAbove]

The sad part is, the guy that was just going to try this without better knowledge was going to kill his Cham anyway, if not this way in some other.
Remember with chams even the simple things like light and supplements are killers if not used correctly. We see this one alot where just one part of the equation was off.

I want to believe that the majority of people are smart enough to use this information properly.
The complaints suggest that we should not know or see such things as we will clearly misuse it. This to me is frustrating as it suggests that it is best so stay ignorant so that stupid people don't cause problems. I just don't get it.

 

[Highway61]

^ ^ ^

Let it go already. Seriously, if you don't have any concern with a needle in the eye, in the hands of amatuers then maybe you're the problem?

 

[CasqueAbove]

^^^
The stupid shit I am tired of hearing

 

[NashansCamos]

^^^
The stupid shit I am tired of hearing

you want millions of new cham owners seeing this video?

Somebody said it already eyes and needles AND new cham owners don't mix

 

[snitz427]

you want millions of new cham owners seeing this video?

Somebody said it already eyes and needles AND new cham owners don't mix

Eyes and needles don’t match, period, IMO. Penne and I are becoming experts at our routine, and I would never, ever use a needle, dull or not.

 

[snitz427]

There are a bunch of options for soft, flexible tips, but I’d recommend something like this for the procedure vs needle tip. That being said, plastic and still scratch and poke the eye, so a great deal of control and care needs to be taken.

 

[NashansCamos]

Eyes and needles don’t match, period, IMO. Penne and I are becoming experts at our routine, and I would never, ever use a needle, dull or not.

exactly. I have seen threads about her eye problem.

Like why not just use a pipette or a syringe with no needle? Why risk stabbing his eye with a needle.

Am I missing something? or are people just putting their chams in uneccesary risks?

 

[kinyonga]

I totally agree that understanding the process is always good. I doubt most here are averse to the knowledge, but many are obviously uncomfortable with the idea of performing the procedure themselves. I think I would be too

I perform several different procedures at work, and I also teach others how to perform these procedures. They are skills, with practice and appropriate supervision, I could teach all of you to do them with a high degree of success

the skill itself is not secret vet knowledge. Again with practice and perhaps more supervision than watching Petr perform the procedure on YouTube a few times any of us could do it.

The issue with any procedure is they all have potential complications, some can be serious or even fatal. It’s important to also understand the potential complications and the treatment for those as well. I can teach you how to place a central line for venous access, but would you know how to place a chest tube if you caused a pneumothorax? What if you caused hemorrhage, could repair it, or at least stabilize the patient until appropriate help arrived?

I suspect most people would worry about the potential complications and their ability to handle them, or the chameleons ability to avoid long term damage from them more than whether they can perform the procedure itself

Well said. It was good to see the technique but I wouldn't try it on my chameleon unless there was no other option. Just don't trust myself around eyes. I have done procedures under a vet's guidance a couple of times that I was not comfortable doing...but all went well....but it wasn't eyes.

Good skills @PetNcs ....steady hands!

 

[snitz427]

Like why not just use a pipette or a syringe with no needle? Why risk stabbing his eye with a needle.

Am I missing something? or are people just putting their chams in uneccesary risks?

Its hard to really get enough fluid under the eyelid without a small, directed flow. It either is a direct eyeball hit (vs kinda shooting it in/under the lid), a drop, or a miss, in my experience. So having a really small opening is helping if you can get parallel to the eye and squirt it in the corner under the lid. You can kind of see the eye swell when you do it, like it does when they clean their own eyes.

Plus some of the cham’s eyes are small, where even a normal eye drop size is too large! For Penne, if I dont get her drops perfectly lined up, the bead covers and rolls off her eye instead of getting IN the eye.

Again, I think knowing how (and when) to flush the eyes is a good thing. My gripe is with the metal needle tip. From what Ive read from researching Penne’s issues, vets will use a needle with a very round bulb tip, or a soft tube, like shown above. I found photos of the same soft tip being used for the nasal flushes. Sometimes done under sedation.

 

[DocZ]

Its hard to really get enough fluid under the eyelid without a small, directed flow. It either is a direct eyeball hit (vs kinda shooting it in/under the lid), a drop, or a miss, in my experience. So having a really small opening is helping if you can get parallel to the eye and squirt it in the corner under the lid. You can kind of see the eye swell when you do it, like it does when they clean their own eyes.

Plus some of the cham’s eyes are small, where even a normal eye drop size is too large! For Penne, if I dont get her drops perfectly lined up, the bead covers and rolls off her eye instead of getting IN the eye.

Again, I think knowing how (and when) to flush the eyes is a good thing. My gripe is with the metal needle tip. From what Ive read from researching Penne’s issues, vets will use a needle with a very round bulb tip, or a soft tube, like shown above. I found photos of the same soft tip being used for the nasal flushes. Sometimes done under sedation.

I agree that you would need directed flow under the eyelid to get pressure built up under eyelid if there's some sort of solid material preventing drainage through the nasolacrimal duct. And I don't disagree that you could damage the eye with a metal needle. If this had to be done multiple times per day, a vet's assistance may not be realistic unless the cham is going to stay at the veterinary clinic..

 

[snitz427]

I agree that you would need directed flow under the eyelid to get pressure built up under eyelid if there's some sort of solid material preventing drainage through the nasolacrimal duct. And I don't disagree that you could damage the eye with a metal needle. If this had to be done multiple times per day, a vet's assistance may not be realistic unless the cham is going to stay at the veterinary clinic..

Oh absolutely. I’ve been doing it almost daily for months... it would be impossible to not do it at home. I think its a very valuable skill to learn and be comfortable with. For people, too (got metal in my own eye once... and some chemicals, too).

On the flip side... daily eye flushes for as long as I have been doing them, with no improvement, sounds like time to move on to another treatment option.

 

[m1les]

Couldn't you do this whole thing without the needle? I think its unecessary and can hurt the eye. A plain syringe would be a different story.

Edit: someone already brought this up just ignore

 

[jamest0o0]

I think we should all rock the same hairstyle as petr. That's how we could spot fellow chamforum members in public.