Eye health - The SOLUTION!!! - Experienced keepers please share your WISDOM!!!

[Extensionofgreen]

I'd suggest looking into a vet that will work with you with estimates, pet insurance, and/or a vet that will accept payment plans. It may not cost as much as you think, but at least start with a basic exam by an experienced vet.

 

[Matt Vanilla Gorilla]

For a lot of members living in rural areas going to a vet is not a option! In my experience it is often more dangerous to go to a vet that knows nothing about chameleons than to look for signs and symptoms and treat at home! One of my customers living in a rural area drove 8 hours one direction just for the vet to tell her that her panther chameleon (that was a beautiful boy, without any doubt) was a eggbound gravid female! They kept the chameleon for a week charged her a arm and leg and did a autopsy after he died to find out that it was not a gravid female but a male and that they very likely killed him with their course of treatment! If the lady only followed my advice and grabbed her chameleon and ran the opposite direction when I told her to, he could have still been alive! (A misdiagnosis of male versus female in adult panthers should tell you that the vet knows nothing about chameleons, if you ask me!) At the same time, the help of a experienced vet is worth it's weight in gold! Please do not take this note as me discrediting all veterinarians! This world would be quite the sad place without them and their dedicated kind service!

 

[Pitcard]

Thanks again for the advice. There is a reputable herp shop in town that deals with a lot of breeders and rescues, there must be a decent vet in the area somewhere. Worth investigating, I'll ask next time I get feeders.

I'll check in later with an update on my girl for better or for worse.

 

[jajeanpierre]

Jaxygirl outlined perfectly how the symptoms of vitamin A deficiency manifest, though I caution against using human vitamins, as the dose will be higher and hard to scale down. One also needs to be aware of the dangers of too much A, the first symptom often being swelling or edema in the throat or gullar area. This signifies kidney stress and damage and is a dangerous warning, calling for cessation and review of your supplement regime and increased misting/showering, until the edema is gone.

Thank you for sharing your experiences@Extensionofgreen. I got a lot out of your post.

However, I don't think the information I quoted above is quite correct. A toxic level of Vitamin A causes skin lesions and epidermal sloughing/blisters and is more prevalent when Vitamin A is injected in a water soluble form.

I agree that gular edema is often triggered by supplements, but I don't know that anyone has ever tested to find out what it actually is in the supplements that seems to trigger the reaction. I have never had gular edema triggered by supplementing with human-grade Vitamin A or even orally given Vitamin A, E, or B complex (in an injectable form from the vet) or even injected Vitamin D.

I prefer human or veterinary grade products simply because the quality control is likely much better than something manufactured in China for reptiles.

 

[jajeanpierre]

I am currently having eye issues with my female Panther. She had just started to develop her pink colouration when I noticed her keeping an eye closed when she thought I wasn't looking. I immediately went the Saline route for a few days. I thought this helped until I noticed her closing both eyes when I wasn't looking.

I just recently stumbled upon this thread in a search for more info, and I'm currently on day 3 of treatment. My plan was to cover one cricket per day for 5 days with Vit A gel, then once a week, and then once monthly from here on out. Is this an advisable routine? She's a first generation CB, her parents were WC if this makes a difference. Thank you.

You really shouldn't be just dosing a toxic vitamin without knowing the therapeutic dose, the maintenance dose and how much you are actually giving. It is unwise to trust anonymous internet sources, regardless of their good intentions, with this kind of question. If you can't cite the research papers that give you that information, you need a reptile vet guiding you.

 

[Extensionofgreen]

Thank you for sharing your experiences@Extensionofgreen. I got a lot out of your post.

However, I don't think the information I quoted above is quite correct. A toxic level of Vitamin A causes skin lesions and epidermal sloughing/blisters and is more prevalent when Vitamin A is injected in a water soluble form.

I agree that gular edema is often triggered by supplements, but I don't know that anyone has ever tested to find out what it actually is in the supplements that seems to trigger the reaction. I have never had gular edema triggered by supplementing with human-grade Vitamin A or even orally given Vitamin A, E, or B complex (in an injectable form from the vet) or even injected Vitamin D.

I prefer human or veterinary grade products simply because the quality control is likely much better than something manufactured in China for reptiles.

I agree that human grade vitamins, dosed appropriately, may have a better level of purity, no fillers, and other benefits. I may be wrong, but Vitamin A can be listed and not specified as to the source ( Beta Carotene or preformed ), so one would have to seek products with specific labeling, which I do know are out there. I have heard of putting a pin hole in a cod liver oil pill and squeezing a drop onto a feeder, weekly. I suppose these sorts of practices are unlikely to do harm, but I dislike not having an accurate portrait of a dosage that is appropriate for management of general health, what dosage is dangerous, and which is appropriate for sick animals.
I think the important thing to acknowledge is that the symptomology resulting from Vitamin A imbalances and the understanding of its role and necessity in a captive care setting is still developing and the "text book" symptoms you mentioned, such as sloughing and blistering of the skin may be at extremely high doses, where the symptoms Jaxygirl and I noted were from deficiency. Gular edema may be a symptom of moderate overdose, something far less than causes the skin sloughing, but is something chameleons show particular sensitivity to.

 

[kelly_girl199]

My answer is Vitamin A deficiency. There isn't enough vitamin A in captive raised feeders in order to sustain the vitamin A needs of a chameleon. Even gutloaded feeders don't contain the vitamin A that is needed to sustain the health of a chameleon. I belive that the amount of vitamin A a chameleon needs is severely under estimated.
There was a bad study regarding Vitamin A and its effects on Chameleons that Vitamin A has virtually been stricken from a chameleons diet.
Vitamin A is the primary vitamin needed for healthy eyes in all animals including humans. There have been studies that Chameleons can not convert the Beta Carotene Vitamin A found in fruits (proformed vitamin A) into useable vitamin A (preformed Vitamin A) Most vitamin dusts contain only vitamin A from beta carotene and it is usually a small amount. And if a vitamin supplement does contain Preformed Vitamin A it is just minimal. However the fear of overdosing Vita A has left a major of chams severely deficient and it seems that it becomes prominate at around 9 months to a year of age.

Usually by the time we notice that our Chameleons has a vitamin A deficiency the illness has progressed to the point where it becomes critical. Chams are good at hiding their health issues. First it starts with dryness and light sensitivity in one eye. So the Cham starts rubbing its eye on branches in the cage because it feels irritated and itchy. A lot of times when this happens people will also notice that the chams tongue becomes weak and doesn't shoot out as far. This is because vitamin A deficiency can also mimic MBD and cause muscle weakness. Because the Cham is rubbing its eye on branches in its cage it further irritates the eye allowing bacteria to enter they eye which causes conjunctivitis. By now either the owner is putting over the counter eye drops made for humans into their chams eyes or they take it to the vet who promptly puts the Cham on antibiotics and eye ointment. Soon the owner probably notices their Cham isnt getting any better. Meanwhile the other eye might become infected because the bacteria infection has spread. Chances are by this time the Cham stops eating and drinking which leads to dehydration. By now the Cham starts to show other symptoms which is usually interpreted as MBD so the Cham is put on heavy doses of Calcium and D3 along with a different antibiotic. This eventually leads to starvation, kidney problems, renal failure and finally death. Most of this could have been prevented if the Cham got the correct amount of vitamin A in its diet to begin with. Unfortunately, very few veterinarians haven't concluded that when the Cham is treated for an eye infection it should also be supplemented with Preformed vitamin A in order to treat the infection and the underlying vitamin A deficiency. I've also read posts where the vet did prescribe a vitamin A supplement but the owner refused to give it because they know better then their vet due to the unfounded fear of vitamin A toxicity. Either way it's a simple solution that could have prevented the death of another Cham.

Where can you get a good vitamin A supplement and how much/how often do you give it? I've noticed two of these problems in my 4 month old Panther. He is alway itching at his eyes. He has even gone so far to try scratching them on my finger. Even when not shedding. He also won't shoot his tongue out very far and is very slow growing.

 

[Davecameos]

Where can you get a good vitamin A supplement and how much/how often do you give it? I've noticed two of these problems in my 4 month old Panther. He is alway itching at his eyes. He has even gone so far to try scratching them on my finger. Even when not shedding. He also won't shoot his tongue out very far and is very slow growing.

Some people say good things about Arcadia EarthPro - A

 

[kelly_girl199]

Some people say good things about Arcadia EarthPro - A

Can a Vitamin A def cause Chams to not eat as much?

 

[L1z4rdB0y]

I'm an experience lizard keeper who's about to jump into the intimidating world of Chameleons. Planning on getting a Jackson's (aka a Triceracop!) and I'm almost finished creating the environment (huge post with progress videos is in the works). With that being said my philosophy regarding diet goes along this line:

Scaly thing eats insects in the wild. What type of insects? Feed scaly thing either that type of insect or something similar.

What do the insects eat in the wild? Feed insects that type of food or something comparable.

We try to re-create their natural environment, why not re-create the natural food chain?

Misguided philosophy or Cam-n00b hubris?

Personally (after I do more reading) I'm shooting for finding a good mix of fruits & veggies, throwing them into The Ninja, then pouring the mix into ice trays, and then feeding the fruit/veggie icecubes to my feeders who will be sacrificed to the mighty and powerful Triceracop called Det. Sgt. Ronald Nathan Harris.

Threads like this give me apprehension and set me off into OCD research mode.

Thanks!

 

[kelly_girl199]

His

My answer is Vitamin A deficiency. There isn't enough vitamin A in captive raised feeders in order to sustain the vitamin A needs of a chameleon. Even gutloaded feeders don't contain the vitamin A that is needed to sustain the health of a chameleon. I belive that the amount of vitamin A a chameleon needs is severely under estimated.
There was a bad study regarding Vitamin A and its effects on Chameleons that Vitamin A has virtually been stricken from a chameleons diet.
Vitamin A is the primary vitamin needed for healthy eyes in all animals including humans. There have been studies that Chameleons can not convert the Beta Carotene Vitamin A found in fruits (proformed vitamin A) into useable vitamin A (preformed Vitamin A) Most vitamin dusts contain only vitamin A from beta carotene and it is usually a small amount. And if a vitamin supplement does contain Preformed Vitamin A it is just minimal. However the fear of overdosing Vita A has left a major of chams severely deficient and it seems that it becomes prominate at around 9 months to a year of age.

Usually by the time we notice that our Chameleons has a vitamin A deficiency the illness has progressed to the point where it becomes critical. Chams are good at hiding their health issues. First it starts with dryness and light sensitivity in one eye. So the Cham starts rubbing its eye on branches in the cage because it feels irritated and itchy. A lot of times when this happens people will also notice that the chams tongue becomes weak and doesn't shoot out as far. This is because vitamin A deficiency can also mimic MBD and cause muscle weakness. Because the Cham is rubbing its eye on branches in its cage it further irritates the eye allowing bacteria to enter they eye which causes conjunctivitis. By now either the owner is putting over the counter eye drops made for humans into their chams eyes or they take it to the vet who promptly puts the Cham on antibiotics and eye ointment. Soon the owner probably notices their Cham isnt getting any better. Meanwhile the other eye might become infected because the bacteria infection has spread. Chances are by this time the Cham stops eating and drinking which leads to dehydration. By now the Cham starts to show other symptoms which is usually interpreted as MBD so the Cham is put on heavy doses of Calcium and D3 along with a different antibiotic. This eventually leads to starvation, kidney problems, renal failure and finally death. Most of this could have been prevented if the Cham got the correct amount of vitamin A in its diet to begin with. Unfortunately, very few veterinarians haven't concluded that when the Cham is treated for an eye infection it should also be supplemented with Preformed vitamin A in order to treat the infection and the underlying vitamin A deficiency. I've also read posts where the vet did prescribe a vitamin A supplement but the owner refused to give it because they know better then their vet due to the unfounded fear of vitamin A toxicity. Either way it's a simple solution that could have prevented the death of another Cham.[/QUOT how do I go about getting mine a good dose of vitamin A?

 

[kelly_girl199]

I

His

do I go about getting mine a good dose of Vitamin A?

 

[microracer24]

I would like to know too. My boy is around 11 months and is having an eye problem and the vet prescribed drops don't seem to be helping. I asked him about vitamin A and he said there is no way to test for a deficiency. I would still like to start him on even a small dose to see if it helps.

 

[Extensionofgreen]

I would like to know too. My boy is around 11 months and is having an eye problem and the vet prescribed drops don't seem to be helping. I asked him about vitamin A and he said there is no way to test for a deficiency. I would still like to start him on even a small dose to see if it helps.

Get a Repashy product or Reptivite and lightly dust 1/3 of his feeders, twice a week, using just calcium 3 days a week and nothing the rest. Do this for a month, then taper the vitamins to once a week, then 2-3 times a month.

 

[microracer24]

Thanks I have the calcium plus that I got for my Leopards. I was planning on using it for Otis once I ran out of my current supplements. I have read several posts saying it is safe to use daily. I will start using it immediately and see if it helps.

 

[Extensionofgreen]

Don't use it daily! Less is more!

 

[Matt Vanilla Gorilla]

Thanks I have the calcium plus that I got for my Leopards. I was planning on using it for Otis once I ran out of my current supplements. I have read several posts saying it is safe to use daily. I will start using it immediately and see if it helps.

It does seem to be a good product. I started using it with good results! Other breeders I network with use it too! Variety seems to still be one of the key ingredients in the health and longevity of all living creatures! Feed as many different kinds of feeder insects as you possibly could and gutload them with as big a variety of gutloads as you possibly can while keeping in mind that you need to research the safety of all gutload items!!!

 

[Matt Vanilla Gorilla]

"Vitamin A Deficiency
A vitamin A deficiency can cause teary and crusty eyes, respiratory problems, shedding problems, and lethargy. Providing your pet with multivitamin supplements and gut-loading his insects with nutritious food can help prevent a deficiency." A quote from chameleoncare.net

 

[Matt Vanilla Gorilla]

Interesting Web post on eye health:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...ghJMA0&usg=AFQjCNHm0qkcFlzeYM0X-Y6xDK_G2Y_saA

 

[Matt Vanilla Gorilla]

Some more great info!

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...CCgwAw&usg=AFQjCNH68edMJf4zc-KIq_ZxdUvl__0sMw