F. Pardalis overrated?

[VeiledOwner87]

You have to take into consideration the costs of running a business. Rent, licenses, utilities, plus whatever all the animals need to thrive. Prices are higher at pet stores because they have a lot of overhead. They are trying to make a living doing what they love (hopefully), and you do not have to buy from them if you do not want to. I don't see them as a problem, but another option to people. We all have a choice on where to purchase animals and how much we want to pay.

-Amanda

meh, screw petstores. i hate em. and thats just bull. so many grab these exotics to may not a quick buck. but a wallet eating buck. there are many cases in the threads here, as well as cases ive seen with my own eyes, sooo many petstores dont take care of them. they dont give the animal proper husbandry, they house chams together. they dont mist cages. they dont do jack for the animal but feed it, and perhaps give it one mist a day. you are right, we all have a choice to pay, but no ones going to buy a sick or not well taken chameleon, or any animal for that. and its rather quite sad. everybody loses out. and we all end up with one dead cham who couldve lived life to the fullest. this is what is stopping me from buying a side-striped and 2 senegals who are just a block away from me right now

 

[Chase]

Wow, there is a lot of misinformation in this thread...

C. parsonii are expensive for a combination of reasons. First, this species is simply a spectacular animal. They are large, majestic, colorful animals with unique skin, intelligence and personalities. They have the potential to live long lives (although rarely do in captivity due to poor husbandry). They are saught after animals in general and as a result have high demand. Secondly, this species is quite rare in captivity which creates high demand and obviously low supply as well.

They are rare in captivity for a number of reasons. First, in 1995, CITES recommended that their export from Madagascar be banned. All CITES party countries are legally bound to these CITES recommendations. No legal C. parsonii have left Madagascar since that time. Next, despite some people claiming that this species is not difficult to keep in captivity, their dietary, water and temperature requirements have resulting in few keepers successfully keeping this species long term. Most of the animals that were imported prior to the ban quickly died off and very very few reproduced. Additionally, this species is very difficult to breed. Getting a pair to breed is extremely different from other species (a child can get Veileds or Panthers to breed with little effort) and is extremely rare. Females have had notorious egg binding issues despite the best of care, nutrition and experience resulting in numerous fatalities. Finally, the eggs take 16-24 months to incubate and most of the eggs die before hatching. Then, if a breeder is able to get to this point, they encounter the typical issues of raising baby chameleons.

C. parsonii have only been bred to F2 a handful of times but not to F3. WC C. parsonii are completely illegal. Imported babies from breeding farms in Asia, which many people question, are available but these have captive bred CITES documents. Any C. parsonii that is WC and not exported from Madagascar before 1995 is illegal, period.

Chris

There are multiple reasons why the panthers are priced the way they are.

First when you have a mass amount of people wanting certain colors not breeds they are willing to pay more. I think is basic economics, here there are the normal breeders who sell panthers for 200-350 and then there are other breeders usually they are the more recent ones and they under cut the competition by selling their chams for 175. I mean hey its money for them and they sell all their stock, if there are enough newer breeders doing that the older breeder HAS to lower their price or they don't sell anything. That is the first reason and i really don't think any one should be complaining about the price of panthers because as so many of you previously stated the price is dropping.

Second part is the color, it can take multiple generations to get the color that one is going for, or you can look for a very long time and pay a pretty penny to get them. I personally crosses should be going for the same as pure bred because many people get a cham based on its colors. So the crosses usually have more colors.

At the way you are going why aren't you complaining that parsons are $2800. I mean they were $40-$50 15 years ago. Markets fluctuate and people should deal with it, if you have a problem just don't deal with the market. You don't HAVE to own a chameleon, so if its too expensive for you don't get it, but don't complain. I think too many people now think they deserve thing such as exotic pets or nice cars or mansions, those things would be nice but they are not the essentials and not every one gets them.

There is a reason why for example Nosy Faly's, you don't see too many sold right? and when you do they are no lower than $400. That's because all the breeders aren't giving up their Faly's they are creating breeding projects because they are relatively new to the market. Give it a year and you will the the flood of Faly's in the market and then the price will drop down to $200-$300 in like 2 or 3 years.

While I agree with some of this googlez, I want to explain on the Parsons subject, and some of the other points you have made here.

Parson's Chameleons 14 or 15 years ago were not illegal to export. The reason why they were so cheap is because they could come into the country just like any other animal imported. They are expensive now for a few reasons. To LEGALLY enter the country, they have to be CB/CH, CITES papers, and as Chris Anderson says above, they have a high demand for people who are already working with them so they can try to establish a successful breeding group.

For your thoughts on breeders HAVING to lower prices because of newer breeders, I disagree. In fact, mostly, they are kept the same. People want quality, so would you rather buy a cheaper animal from a breeder that you know nothing about, or buy from a well respected breeder? Although the prices may be up to $100 dollars difference, people who are wanting to breed themselves and already have lizards from known breeders.

I also think you contradict yourself. You say color takes years to establish, while you say known breeders HAVE to lower prices due to newer breeders. Newer breeders meaning this is their first or second year breeding? Meaning the color quality in their animals should be far less superior than someone who has been breeding say 5 or more years? I am not trying to say newer breeders, or even hobby breeders have bad animals, I am a hobby breeder myself, I am just saying unless people are going to just have them as a pet, they most likely will buy from known breeders.

LPR08

EDIT: For those who want to read the thread where I got Chris' quote, here it is.
https://www.chameleonforums.com/why-parsonii-chameleons-so-expensive-30559/index2.html

 

[GooglezNvincent]

I understand what you are getting at, but when the market is declining like it is and you also have newer breeders undercutting the more "reputable" or "established" ones, the consumers that aren't familiar with breeders just buy the cheaper ones.

 

[Chase]

I understand what you are getting at, but when the market is declining like it is and you also have newer breeders undercutting the more "reputable" or "established" ones, the consumers that aren't familiar with breeders just buy the cheaper ones.

Not always. It depends on if you yourself are wanting to get into breeding, or if you want just a pet.

I'll use dog breeding as another example. Let's say you want to breed I don't know, Yorkshire Terriers. You look in the newspaper or online for local breeders, and find two seperate ads. One ad has a few different bloodlines, and they are AKC registered, with champion bloodlines. The other ad on the other hand, has some, that are not AKC registered, and are $200-$500 cheaper. If you are wanting to get into breeding, like serious breeding, you would probably buy the more expensive ones, to have better lineage. But, if you wanted to just have a pet, you would buy the ones that are still good, but aren't AKC registered.

But back to pet stores. VeiledOwner- Don't take it personally. They are just in it for money, and like ChameleonAyer said, hopefully because they like the hobby. Mom and Pop pet stores, are in it for the hobby, big chain stores unfortunatly are not. Saying this, even though they don't care for them properly, if it dies in the store, they are less likely to restock that species, because of lack of interest, and now they are out of money. You want to help the chameleon out, and sometimes we have to do it, but by not buying them, it helps keep more not in the store, and hopefully in better hands.

LPR08

 

[OldSkoolxReasons]

In order to get a parson's legally it would have to be CB. Unless someone has a wild caught female from before 1996 who has been carrying a clutch for the past 15 or so years you aren't getting a parson's CH legally to my limited knowledge. I have no problem with the price of panthers, I have paid as low as $100 plus shipping for some(still from top quality site sponsors) and $300 plus shipping from a site sponsor. It all depends on what color animal I am looking for and for what reason. Personally I buy female from the chameleon company mostly. They at times have excess adult females at very reasonable prices from great sires. I don't think there is a red body blue bar ambilobe out there that I like more than anubis jr. and I paid $150 a pop for a couple of his daughters. Also every animal I have gotten from Jim has been in perfect health, I have received animals from supposed good guys and the female ambilobe i received most recently had gular edema, big burns, multiple infections on missing toenails, mouth rot, and get this PARASITES! And this was from someone I was directed too through a forum member. I e-mailed the guy and he responded once saying I was ling about her health so I took her to the vet and sent him picture upon picture of her upon arrival and a picture of a wild caught female I receive who was in far better health out of the box than his girl. As we speak she is carrying a clutch sired by who knows what male from who knows what bloodline, the guy wont respond to me so thats that. All I know is that she is originally a product of the chameleon company sired by cowboy, obviously she has been neglected since she left them cuz I know they would never let an animal look like that. Enough ranting but thats why I buy directly from site sponsors or well respected forum members. I'll pay the extra $100 so I don't end up with $300+ in vet bills and have a clutch of eggs I'll have to sell dirt cheap cuz I know nothing about the sire. They will be sold as strictly pets because I would not let a person reed one of the males or females not knowing if they are breeding relatives of some sort. What a mess all because I tried to save a couple bucks.


Justin

 

[tkilgour]

Panthers overrated, HECK NO!!!!!

Justin, good point. I get a lot of quality chameleons from Jim at the Chameleon Company and they are a very fair price and always in tip top health. Health and color are extremely important to me I have been happy with all my males and females from him. I got an Ambanja male sired by Willie Pete from Jim. This Ambanja is absolutely amazing, I'd say one of the best Ambanjas I have ever bought. I recently bought a pair of Ambilobes from Jim, the male sired by Bonaroo and the female by Q. This male is going to be a spitting image of Bonaroo and that was a very important factor for me. I need that high red color trait.

I have bought $100 panthers and even $300 panthers, but I am always looking for specific color traits for breeding. Also, I usually would avoid a 1 month and younger panther or veiled for that matter.

However, the younger the animal usually the cheaper it costs.