Feeding time has become a little strange

[Noelanigabrielle]

Recently Eugene(my chami) has been doing this weird thing. I feed him out of a dish with high wall so its harder for the crickets to jump out. He usually eats just fine but recently (last month and a half) there has been an occasional mishap where he shoots for a cricket, misses and right before his tongue retracts all the way he lunges forward into the dish. Ultimately missing what ever he is aiming for. The first few times I though it was just bad aim. The dish is a translucent green color and the shadows make it a little weird to see prey. So I wasn't sure if that was the issue. I also thought it might be dehydration so I upped the amount of spraying and mist time. It didn't happen as often and then all of a sudden he's back at it again. This week alone he has done it almost every feed time. Im unsure of what the problem could be and although he has had no change in health other wise I am slightly concerned it might be something related to nerves or seizures due to the jerk type of lunge at the end. If anyone has any info for me I would much appreciate it. Thank you!

Chameleon Info:

• Your Chameleon - Veiled, Male, Juvenile, not sure exact age but younger then a year. Ive had him for about 5 months now.
• Handling - Every day during feeding time he climbs onto my hand/arm to eat.
• Feeding - 10-20 small crickets a day. Dusted with calcium 5 days a week and Multi Vitamins 2 days a week. plus 1-3 meal worms every 2 days. Crickets get "Flunkers Gut load high calcium food", and carrots and broccoli once a week.
• Supplements - "Repti calcium" and Rep-cal's "Herptivite" multi vits.
• Watering - Misting machine and occasional spray bottle. Mist is on duration from about 9-10 hours in one corner of the cage. He has the option to sit under it or be far away where no mist lands. He is often found drinking under the mist build up and sitting under it.
• Fecal Description - Same as always, brown with white tip. 3 weeks ago he did experience watery dropping but has cleared up since then.
• History - None that I can think of besides being purchased from a pet store.

Cage Info:

• Cage Type - 18x18 width x 3feet height, Screen cage
• Lighting - 12 hour uvb duration, dual ceramic heat lamps. Zoo med and national geographic brand.
• Temperature - Heat is all monitored by themostats, 2 in cage. one at the bottom and one under the heat lamps. Temp range in cage from 70 degrees F. to about 100 degrees F. in different part of the cage.
  **It has been a very hot 2 days here where we live so the heat lamps have not been on.
• Humidity - Hydrometer to monitor, anywhere from 40%-60% depending on time of day and misting.
• Plants - all fake plants
• Placement - Corner of the room. next to/near a window but not in front of it. next to the living room couch area.
• Location - Antioch, Ca. USA

Cage set up

• Noelanigabrielle
• Jun 21, 2017

 

[JacksJill]

One thing I notice is your supplement schedule is a bit off. He should be getting Calcium with out phosphorus 6 days a weeks and multivitamin only once every 2 weeks. Like this.
Supplementation:
...Feeder insects should be lightly dusted with powdered supplement before being fed to your chameleon. Many keepers successfully use calcium (without D3 or phosphorus) at nearly every feeding, multivitamin once every 2 weeks, and calcium with D3 once every 2 weeks.

 

[Noelanigabrielle]

One thing I notice is your supplement schedule is a bit off. He should be getting Calcium with out phosphorus 6 days a weeks and multivitamin only once every 2 weeks. Like this.
Supplementation:
...Feeder insects should be lightly dusted with powdered supplement before being fed to your chameleon. Many keepers successfully use calcium (without D3 or phosphorus) at nearly every feeding, multivitamin once every 2 weeks, and calcium with D3 once every 2 weeks.

So increase calcium decrease muti vitamins. Thanks. So you think that might be causing the issue? or just a suggestion on effective care for him?

 

[JacksJill]

Nutritional imbalances can cause coordination problems but are not the only possible cause. Does your multi vitamin have D3 in it? Without enough D3 they fail to absorb enough calcium and that can really affect coordination and many other things.
How old is your UVB bulb? It could be due for replacement and that is their other source of D3.
Suggestions for effective care would include feeding your crickets a better gut load and dropping the mealworms and feeding dubia roaches, silkworms, hornworms and superworms instead. Superworms look like mealworms but are a better feeder.

 

[Nursemaia]

100° is too hot as well

 

[Andee]

Have you not been dusting with D3 at all? Is there a reason for that? Is he getting outside everyday? Also your dry "gutload" I can say is not a gutload, it will keep your crickets alive, but is useless otherwise. As far as the veggies you are feeding... carrots are ok... broccoli should be used sparingly, you need to increase variety a lot. I mean technically a diet of crickets would work just fine, but your gutload and veggies diet has to be optimum which yours isn't.

 

[Noelanigabrielle]

Nutritional imbalances can cause coordination problems but are not the only possible cause. Does your multi vitamin have D3 in it? Without enough D3 they fail to absorb enough calcium and that can really affect coordination and many other things.
How old is your UVB bulb? It could be due for replacement and that is their other source of D3.
Suggestions for effective care would include feeding your crickets a better gut load and dropping the mealworms and feeding dubia roaches, silkworms, hornworms and superworms instead. Superworms look like mealworms but are a better feeder.

I just changed the UV bulb last month, my calcium has D3 in it already. I have a tank full of crickets and do feed them kale and spinach on occasion but don't do it often due to spoil from the heat and cage maintenance. I will indeed introduce it more and try some other bugs. I was told to avoid silkworms as a daily feeding due to the fat build up. It super fatty and I was trying to avoid his weight gain as ive heard that can be responsible for blindness rather rapidly and can't be fixed.

100° is too hot as well

He isn't in 100 degrees all the time. That is the temp for that area of the cage. Which he often visits on his own.

Have you not been dusting with D3 at all? Is there a reason for that? Is he getting outside everyday? Also your dry "gutload" I can say is not a gutload, it will keep your crickets alive, but is useless otherwise. As far as the veggies you are feeding... carrots are ok... broccoli should be used sparingly, you need to increase variety a lot. I mean technically a diet of crickets would work just fine, but your gutload and veggies diet has to be optimum which yours isn't.

I use the gut load feeding as food. Not just as gut load. It said list the brands and types and thats what i did. Informing you guys thats what it was called incase someone wanted to look it up. D3 in the mixture of calcium. He doesn't go outside everyday because of the weather and he's not to fond out exiting the house. He gets worked up and pissed off. Doesn't seem to enjoy it. but he does go outside on occasion.

______________________________

I appreciate all the advice but am saddened that no one can chime in on how he is acting, if they have experienced it or if they know what might be the issue. I will make adjustments to his care and see if it improves but for now I guess I am still unsure.

 

[Andee]

"I was told to avoid silkworms as a daily feeding due to the fat build up. It super fatty and I was trying to avoid his weight gain as ive head that can be responsible for blindness."

This is weird advice and makes no sense to me... Idk where you got it... silkworms are fattier yes, but you are already feeding something way worse than that which are mealworms. Silkworms are at least a healthier feeder (less fat, easy to digest, offer hydration, and high natural calcium levels)... As far as weight gain causing blindness... that's odd, I mean it could be the eventual cause of blindness because it would cause a bunch of other issues like fatty liver symptoms etc. But as long as you feed a variety off insects and have a lot of good gutloads you should be fine.

And yes no one will recommend Fuker's gutload, it's actually something that will likely cause more issues than be helpful because of all the grains in it.

 

[Carlton]

I just changed the UV bulb last month, my calcium has D3 in it already. I have a tank full of crickets and do feed them kale and spinach on occasion but don't do it often due to spoil from the heat and cage maintenance. I will indeed introduce it more and try some other bugs. I was told to avoid silkworms as a daily feeding due to the fat build up. It super fatty and I was trying to avoid his weight gain as ive heard that can be responsible for blindness rather rapidly and can't be fixed.


He isn't in 100 degrees all the time. That is the temp for that area of the cage. Which he often visits on his own.


I use the gut load feeding as food. Not just as gut load. It said list the brands and types and thats what i did. Informing you guys thats what it was called incase someone wanted to look it up. D3 in the mixture of calcium. He doesn't go outside everyday because of the weather and he's not to fond out exiting the house. He gets worked up and pissed off. Doesn't seem to enjoy it. but he does go outside on occasion.

______________________________

I appreciate all the advice but am saddened that no one can chime in on how he is acting, if they have experienced it or if they know what might be the issue. I will make adjustments to his care and see if it improves but for now I guess I am still unsure.

Well, the nutritional issues CAN create the behaviors you are seeing because nutrition affects his eye-muscle coordination and neural control. Also, IMHO chams who are only offered feeders in a small dish can lose muscle tone in the tongue simply from lack of use. Being able to hunt, locate prey, aim, and shoot at it accurately helps keep them in "shape". I always try to offer some feeders that fly or can free range as well as feeders that do better offered out of a dish.

 

[JacksJill]

I just changed the UV bulb last month, my calcium has D3 in it already. I have a tank full of crickets and do feed them kale and spinach on occasion but don't do it often due to spoil from the heat and cage maintenance. I will indeed introduce it more and try some other bugs. I was told to avoid silkworms as a daily feeding due to the fat build up. It super fatty and I was trying to avoid his weight gain as ive heard that can be responsible for blindness rather rapidly and can't be fixed.

If your calcium has D3 in it it should only be used every two weeks. Calcium without D3 should be use most days.
I'm wondering if you are confusing silkworms with wax or butter worms that are rather fatty.

 

[Andee]

We are offering advice, poor supplementation with too much D3 can cause MBD symptoms, poor gutloading can cause calcium defencies, too high of basking areas can injure eyes, or cause severe dehydration.... We wouldn't mention you correcting it if it wasn't something that was an issue and could help.

 

[JacksJill]

I wish the symptoms you are seeing had a simple answer. Unfortunately chameleon's aren't that simple. Try adjusting your husbandry and see if that helps. If not and things progress than you may want to consult a good reptile vet. I doubt that will be necessary but it's good to have a vet handy just in case.

 

[laurie]

I am off on something else. You said his mister is on for 10 or 12 hours? And his cage still gets to 100? The mist should be helping to cool the cage. I see you live where it is hot, is there a place where his cage might not get as hot? But if his mister is on he can cool off in the water. I would hate your water bill.

All of the different things people have offered, may be part of the problem.

If he were mine, I would feed his bugs only food I would eat. He gets his nutrition from his food, and currently his food is lacking a lot in nutrition. Just buy food for him, when you get it for you.. I only have one chameleon currently, so his bugs eat salad with no dressing,carrots, green beans , fresh not cooked, squash, again not cooked ( ok I should have said no cooked veggies and left it alone) green peas, watermelon, canalope, berries, that sort of stuff. Unless you keep lots of food items on hand for him, you should not need very much food daily for the bugs. You need to feed the bugs daily or you are not feeding your chameleon daily, because his food has no nutritional value.

Sorry I ramble. I would say food quality may be your biggest problem, but do consider all the advice you were given. As it is with us so is it with our chams, it all goes together! Good luck!

 

[Noelanigabrielle]

We are offering advice, poor supplementation with too much D3 can cause MBD symptoms, poor gutloading can cause calcium defencies, too high of basking areas can injure eyes, or cause severe dehydration.... We wouldn't mention you correcting it if it wasn't something that was an issue and could help.

I wasn't saying I didn't want the advice. I was actually really accepting of it and already made changes. What I was bringing up are corrections. Like yes I do offer D3 and yes it is 100 degrees but not the entire cage. I am willing to listen and learn. I think the way things are read are often misinterpreted because of it. Maybe that is what is happening here. I don't want anyone to think I am ungrateful for advice. I was stating that i am making changes to benefit him and also in hopes that it helps. I was just sad that there is no definite answer.

 

[Noelanigabrielle]

If your calcium has D3 in it it should only be used every two weeks. Calcium without D3 should be use most days.
I'm wondering if you are confusing silkworms with wax or butter worms that are rather fatty.

So i should have a separate calcium supplement, that is only calcium. and then give him the calcium/D3 when I use the multivitamins?

 

[Lostzen71]

So i should have a separate calcium supplement, that is only calcium. and then give him the calcium/D3 when I use the multivitamins?

Yes. I'm new but from what I've learned on here, as long as they're receiving UVB they only need D3 twice a month. Too much can build up in their system and be really bad. You want to get some calcium without D3 for your daily dust.

 

[Noelanigabrielle]

Have you not been dusting with D3 at all? Is there a reason for that? Is he getting outside everyday? Also your dry "gutload" I can say is not a gutload, it will keep your crickets alive, but is useless otherwise. As far as the veggies you are feeding... carrots are ok... broccoli should be used sparingly, you need to increase variety a lot. I mean technically a diet of crickets would work just fine, but your gutload and veggies diet has to be optimum which yours isn't.

Nutritional imbalances can cause coordination problems but are not the only possible cause. Does your multi vitamin have D3 in it? Without enough D3 they fail to absorb enough calcium and that can really affect coordination and many other things.
How old is your UVB bulb? It could be due for replacement and that is their other source of D3.
Suggestions for effective care would include feeding your crickets a better gut load and dropping the mealworms and feeding dubia roaches, silkworms, hornworms and superworms instead. Superworms look like mealworms but are a better feeder.

So I am making changes to his diet. I am adding super worms and hornworms. So with that and crickets how many should I be feeding him of each, each day.

 

[JacksJill]

I would use the super worms just like you used to do the mealworms. When you feed hornworms I would use them to replace 25% of your crickets that feeding. So use crickets for 50-60% of your feeding and then use the others as roughly 25% each. You may have to adjust as some times the hornworms get huge.
I don't have any hard science behind that answer it is just based roughly on what I do to rotate my feeders which are roughly 30-40% dubia, 30-40% silk worms, 10-20% superworms, & 10-20% snails weekly.

 

[Noelanigabrielle]

I would use the super worms just like you used to do the mealworms. When you feed hornworms I would use them to replace 25% of your crickets that feeding. So use crickets for 50-60% of your feeding and then use the others as roughly 25% each. You may have to adjust as some times the hornworms get huge.

Thanks so much! We really appreciate you.

 

[JacksJill]

I think he's going to like the hornworms once he gets used to them. They are juicy and give a nice boost of hydration.